Courtney Lauer: The Hurry and the Harm

Courtney Lauer (graphic designer, artist) shares her story with Aaron McCall and talks about survival, control, and the strength it takes to turn pain into something honest. She opens up about surviving and processing trauma, rebuilding identity through creativity, and using art to make sense of the things that don’t have easy answers.

Keep up with Courtney Lauer:
courtneylauer.me
IG: @courtneylauer

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This episode is supported by:
Creative Mornings Grand Rapids
Merchants & Makers
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Writer/Producer/Editor/Host:
Aaron McCall
aaronmccall.net
IG: @aaron_mccall
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Co-Host/Sidekick/Photographer:
Joe Matteson
themattesons.co
IG: @joe_dustin
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Music:
"Noises" by Mike Mains & The Branches
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Support the Podcast:
Buy Merch
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Follow Bad Idea Social Club:
badideasocialclub.com
IG: @badideasocialclub

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:53

So I want to be messy. I want to say fuck. I don't want to censor what I say. I really want to be myself. And I think when you figure out what yourself is, it won't feel so daunting.

SPEAKER_05 1:18

Alright, who wants this one? Who wants to wrap us up this season?

SPEAKER_02 1:23

Who did it last?

SPEAKER_00 1:24

I don't know. There was a minute. Those are my baby. There was a hot minutes express. Do people still say that?

SPEAKER_05 1:31

Nope.

SPEAKER_00 1:31

Nope. I like it.

SPEAKER_05 1:34

Well, uh, hey everybody. Welcome back to Banded Idea Social Club. My name is Aaron McCullough.

SPEAKER_03 1:39

I am that was gonna happen. Yes.

SPEAKER_02 1:45

How has that never happened before?

SPEAKER_00 1:47

I knew this was the thing.

SPEAKER_02 1:49

I could see it.

SPEAKER_00 1:50

Oh, I feel like a supermoon tomorrow. That's what it is. Oh, dude.

SPEAKER_05 1:54

Do you want to try it again?

SPEAKER_00 1:56

I want to keep it.

SPEAKER_03 1:57

I just did that.

SPEAKER_05 1:59

Well, then I'm gonna I'm gonna talk about Courtney Lauer then. Um Courtney piped in from San Diego. She's a graphic designer and artist who has been through it. But she still finds ways to make things that say something, things that mean something to her, and and not only reflect her lived experience, but offers a space for others to connect. Courtney lives and functions with creativity and curiosity in her bones. And I saw that from the first time I met her. Um I I can't put a year on it, but it was back in my agency days. Uh I went to go review portfolios for Kendall College of Art and Design, and and she was one of the portfolios that I reviewed. And immediately upon seeing her work compared to literally everybody else in the crop, I was like, holy shit, I gotta get her into this agency. And I tried, there's some other. But anyways, not not hiring her and bringing her in was such a fucking mist. It's cool. Um so it's like, you know, when you find somebody like that, it's like you you hang on and you stay in touch.

SPEAKER_04 3:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 3:16

But yeah, we we got into surviving and processing trauma, how creativity literally becomes a lifeline, and what it looks like to keep making when the hill is just so steep. Um quick note this episode does include discussion of gun violence uh and trauma. Uh nothing graphic, but if that's something you need to skip today, totally understand. Uh however, I do think there's real value in listening to her perspective and experience on it.

SPEAKER_02 3:52

The one and only time uh I've been able to spend time with Courtney was actually at our shoot for your apparel for some of your t-shirt designs when we did that. You know what I mean?

SPEAKER_05 4:02

You know what stupid is I was just gonna say, I didn't know you've met Courtney, but that's awesome. But yeah, we had a whole day about it.

SPEAKER_02 4:10

You know, there's there's something about there's something about someone's like welcoming spirit that can fill a room that Courtney absolutely has and embodies. I just remember her being like the center point. We had a couple different people that were styling shoes or excuse excuse me, modeling shirts. And I just feel as though she was such a good unifying energy to have in that room. Dude, she's sunshine. Yeah, I love it.

SPEAKER_00 4:34

That's yeah, that's great. That's awesome. Yeah. I was wondering why she looked familiar because she did, but then she was talking about being on the West Coast. I'm like, how do I know this person? But that's why.

SPEAKER_05 4:43

You know, yeah, I've I've I've used those photos to death.

SPEAKER_02 4:49

So I love it. Well, before we dive in, don't forget to follow wherever you're listening. Leave a five-star review and don't forget to tell your friends.

SPEAKER_00 4:57

Also, this thing runs on merch sales and donations. So go over to badideasocialclub.com and buy some stuff or leave us some cash. And I'm going to take this moment to plug the holiday art market that's coming up in a little bit that you can also contribute to the podcast through. So be it City Built November 22nd, 12 to 4.

SPEAKER_02 5:15

12 to 4, baby. And not only is it my very first art booth, but it's one that I'm sharing alongside my sister, and we're releasing a series of images under the title What If Something's Missing. Um, and we're gonna have a bunch of like small prints associated with it that we're gonna have for sale, and then we're gonna be there as just bad ideas as well, Amber and Aaron and I, and it's gonna be a blast.

SPEAKER_05 5:37

Oh, also the re-release of the Bad Ideas Social Club West Coast IPA. It's a big day. We got a lot going on that day, and we are so stark, so stoked to party with you guys.

SPEAKER_00 5:47

Starked to potty.

SPEAKER_05 5:48

We're starked to potty.

SPEAKER_00 5:52

I'm Stark Tapy.

SPEAKER_05 5:53

Shut up. Here's my conversation with Courtney.

SPEAKER_01 5:57

Erin, we made it.

SPEAKER_05 5:59

Oh my god, dude. I'm so glad. Like, I was so relieved last week, and you're like, this ain't happening. I was like, I had I had just gotten a flu shot. It was bad. Like it would have been the the hardest, most ridiculous thing for anybody to listen to.

SPEAKER_01 6:13

We would have been like, oh, we can't really form a thought, but I love that we're on the same page and we didn't even know it.

SPEAKER_05 6:18

Dude, I had nothing in the tank.

SPEAKER_01 6:20

I know that's how I thought I was like, I'm gonna, I'm gonna be a shell of myself, and like I know this can be good. I know we have good thoughts together.

SPEAKER_05 6:26

Yeah. Um, and I so I do feel like we have a lot to get into, but I kind of want to start at the beginning to understand where you came from, uh, what kind of kid you were, that kind of thing. So lay it on me.

SPEAKER_01 6:38

Uh, I love that. I really love that. God, what kind of kid I was. I think about this all often. And I think that we actually, not even as creatives, as people should be thinking about this more about not only what kind of kid that we were, but what kind of kid the people that we're interacting with, what kind of kid they were, because I think it gives us so much context to why we operate the way that we do. So I spend so much time in my adult self and then also my inner child baby court self because I just want to understand her, and sometimes I'm so confused by her, and I ultimately love her. Um, I think as we get to be adults, especially in the culture that we live in, there is so much disconnect from our like childlike wonder and so much disconnect from who we are as children, and I think a lot of us are actually still children in adult bodies in the most beautiful way. And a lot of the time we dismiss that version of ourselves because, like I said, it's confusing. Like you have to step inside of this and go so far back to connect with this version that might be like a almost like a stranger. But I have learned so much about myself by tapping into who I was as a child, and I think I've always been very curious, and it's interesting to think how my curiosity was received because I think that it was actually received in a way that was like almost like defiant. Interesting, just always like the why. Why? Like how many paths does that take us down when we're able to just say, but why and question things that maybe like seem normal.

SPEAKER_05 8:20

So as kids, we're all pretty creative. It sounds like you were you kind of had some walls up though.

SPEAKER_01 8:26

It's interesting. I think that I didn't know that, or maybe I didn't honor how creative and curious I was until until really I maybe got to even college.

SPEAKER_05 8:37

Oh, really? That's when it started to feel like yours.

SPEAKER_01 8:40

Yeah, or I think maybe I assumed that everyone was like this, that everyone had so many thoughts about the world, and that everyone was like they were visual thinkers. So I don't think I really started to notice it until high school or college that I thought differently than other people. And I also want to say that I went to the high school that I went to was like an arts high school where we didn't have gym class, we had dance class, and where we didn't have, you know, we had we had art class and things like that. So I was surrounded by a lot of people who were, you know, like super creative, super creative and like socially awkward creatives, even coming from me. Like I was like these introverts in their own space, in their own world, like weird in a really beautiful way. So I think that that was I kind of thought like everyone in the world that was that way. I wouldn't say that my parents were like I grew up in a very creative household, but I think I've always leaned on it as a way of self-expression.

SPEAKER_05 9:36

How did you find it? And then how did you use it?

SPEAKER_01 9:38

Yeah, that's a beautiful question. It's so interesting because I grew up with a twin sister who is truly my pride and joy. And I think what happens when you do have a twin is that you are compared often between us. I was the the more creative one, and she's a little bit more of a logical, like analytical one. Even in my mind, I think that every truly everyone's creative. So I think that I, when like people would name that, I was like, oh, I I like that, I can identify with that. So it wasn't really this thing that felt like it was a grit to get there. I felt like it really unfolded in an interesting way that, like I said, kind of felt like everyone had it. And then I think the real work really started after I got out of college, and it's like, how what do I what do I do with this? Like tangibly, but then also in my body, like what am I how does this get released? How do I make? How do I think, etc.?

SPEAKER_05 10:37

Well, and you grew up religious too, spiritual.

SPEAKER_01 10:39

Um, in a sense, so I would say that my um family is is believers. Something that was interesting is that I really came into religion more so in my like late 20s.

SPEAKER_05 10:53

Oh, kind of, kind of on your own?

SPEAKER_01 10:55

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 10:56

How does that happen?

SPEAKER_01 10:57

Exactly. You know what is so and you know what? I'm I always say that I'm so grateful. I grew up with it in the peripheral, but it was never imposed on me, and I am so thankful that my parents were kind of just like, you self-express in in what feels right to you. Um, but but really what happened is that in my later 20s, I think I became so curious to the point where asking all of these whys really led me down a path of wanting belonging and wanting connection, and I think religion answers those questions for you, or or an attempt to truly soothe a wound.

SPEAKER_05 11:35

And how's it how's it working out for you?

SPEAKER_01 11:38

Oh man. I would say that it led me to a place of true authenticity because I was so in it. It answered everything in a way that I did not expect it to. It answered all of the things that I it made it very clear what I don't believe in and what I don't want to be immersed in and what I see as harmful tactics and what I feel is suppressing self-expression. Um so I think it made me confront myself, and I think that's a lot of what creativity is, and I think that's a lot of what being a human is, is that you're asking, like, what do I believe in? Like, do I believe in this because I in my soul believes in it, or do I believe in it because I'm with like a group of people that, you know, have have led me in the way that's saying this is this is the only way to find peace.

SPEAKER_05 12:24

How do you confront yourself?

SPEAKER_01 12:26

I think that your body will tell you, and this is actually what happened to me a lot, is that when I I know, and I think this is a great litmus test, if you if someone is feeling like they are not being their most if you're in a situation and it's like, man, I'm feeling stifled in some way, I'm feeling suppressed in some way, I'm not feeling self-expressed, I'm not feeling free to be myself. That is a very good indicator to me that I'm not in, that I'm putting myself in or not in the right situation. But when you're hearing from from, I mean, think about our culture, when you're hearing from our culture of saying like this is the way, you really want to make that way work because in your mind, it's the only it's the only way to find belonging, and it's the only way to find healing. So I think a lot of the time we're on this obsessive quest to self-optimize, and what religion gives you is an opportunity to be your best. So I had noticed a ton in my late 20s there were spaces where I could not be my full self, and it did keep coming up for me, and I ignored it for at least two years because it would mean it is a sacrifice, it does mean that you are removing yourself from something that you know to be familiar, so you might lose you do lose a sense of connection, but what you're replacing is true authenticity. So I could not ignore my intuition, and that has that has served me beautifully, is truly listening to myself.

SPEAKER_05 13:54

So, what are you learning about yourself through not only through your experiences with religion, but also like how that kind of translates through your relationship with creativity?

SPEAKER_01 14:02

Yeah, I think the biggest thing that I learned about myself and about what feels good to me is that there's I think that there's like this formalness or this buttoning up that is centered around creativity and that doesn't serve me, and that doesn't serve the people around me because I'm literally showing up as this half like robotic version of myself, and I think the biggest gift that you can give communities is being yourself, and all of the advice that I had gotten before in creativity of like be yourself, I thought was so trite, and the tr the trite advice is actually the advice that like sticks the most. I really think being yourself is the most freeing thing. That is the path to freedom. So, what I'm learning about myself is that I really want to be messy and like I really want things to be out of order, and I don't want to be polite all the time, and I don't want to be formal. Like, I want people to leave an interaction with me and say, like, oh, I could be I could be myself, I could be raw with her. But the last thing that I want to do is walk around in the world in a in a shell version, in a robotic version, and I I did do that, and I think there are a lot of people who are subconsciously doing that. And the second that you're self-censoring, like disservice to you, disservice to the community, disservice to self-expression, disservice to creativity. So I want to be messy, I want to say fuck, I don't want to censor what I say. I I really want to be myself, and I think when you figure out what yourself is, it won't feel so daunting.

SPEAKER_05 15:34

What is it that you want to say with your art and your design?

SPEAKER_01 15:38

Man, there's so many things. It's so interesting because I think in the past couple years it has taken um a couple different avenues. But I know what in my I know in my soul what I want to say, and that is that I think creativity is does not have to be a monetized tool, and it does not have to be a utility. It is it is ultimately a healing tool. And whether that is healing to you or a whole group of people, that I think is incredibly life-changing, and it's been creativity has been viewed as this narrow lens of like whimsical things. Creativity is so expansive, it could be a hundred million things, and I think that's what I love about it, and that's why I backed up earlier and said, like, oh, when we when people describe me and my twin, like saying one of us is logical and one of us is creative. I really think that everyone is creative, and I think there is a there is a little bit of a crutch that says, like, no, I'm I'm just not creative, so I'm not gonna lean into it. There's so many ways to discover and think and interact that I think make all of us creative. We're living on this planet, so we have to be creative.

SPEAKER_05 16:40

It's wild. Like, I can't tell you how many people I interact with, whether it's on the podcast or something adjacent, and they're like, Well, I'm not, I'm not really creative. I'm not, you know, and then they go on to explain this fucking thing that it's like, dude, you made that from nothing.

SPEAKER_01 16:54

Exactly. Even even the people who are like planning a logical, strategic, like cre trip with their friends, like people are like, Oh, I'm the meeting, I'm not I'm like, you that it that takes creativity, that creates discovery, that all of that. So I'm always trying to rewire that on people that's like, what what would the world look like if we all did say own that we actually are creative and that it isn't this this cute thing? Because I think it is very viewed as like um a whimsical hobby, and I think it's incredibly transformative.

SPEAKER_05 17:29

What what role do you think creativity plays in the larger context of culture, life, etc.?

SPEAKER_01 17:36

I think I'm grateful to see in both ways. I see people using it in a way that is freeing themselves and freeing other people, and that is the biggest inspiration to me. Also, I think a lot of what we see is a um is a defense and a rejection of creativity, especially in Western culture, especially in the like political climate that we exist in, the utopia of America right now, is that those things don't matter, is that creativity doesn't matter, and that it is an extracurricular spiritual woo-woo thing. And I think if their creativity was truly immersed in children's lives more, not just as the role of a a parent of the system though, then we would see people able to self-express. Because what we're seeing right now is whether they can name it or not, people unable to fully be themselves. So they are finding other avenues which might be violence, which might be toxic masculinity, which might be uh connecting to very, very specific groups being extremists in some ways, because creativity is unaccessible to them. I want to make I want to say that the even the concept of creativity is accessible to every person's brain and that and that it's worth it to discover and pursue.

SPEAKER_05 18:53

Especially when you start to see these like arts programs and music programs get defunded. It's on one hand, I'm very optimistic, uh, because I see a lot of um a lot of younger creatives doing really, really cool things. But then it's like, okay, like if if if you have this rug pulled out from under you and you never have a chance, that's terrifying.

SPEAKER_01 19:16

It's terrifying. And I'm not sure that the curiosity of what those programs actually do for kids is is even instilled in people in in in the larger culture. I think people are viewing it in a way that it it isn't it isn't like giving in, it is just something that's there as a as a playful thing.

SPEAKER_05 19:35

Even when I was a kid, it was presented as like this is extra.

SPEAKER_01 19:38

And even I would say older generations may not, and I'm really working on black mic thinking and not blanket statement. So this is not this is not to say that all of older generations, I've met beautiful artists who are expressive in school. But the older generations, it is very like not people are not really sure what I do or what like my or essentially what my entire essence is, which is self-expression and creativity, is that they're they're very confused by it. And I think they think I'm like living on a different planet, and I'm like, no, we are here on planet Earth, baby, and this this really does matter.

SPEAKER_05 20:10

What about the like commodity of it all, right? Like, do you think there's a place for real human creativity in a space that seems to value speed and quantity over quality ideas and critical thinking and concepts and yeah, I will tell you that this uh very specific topic is um the bane of my existence.

SPEAKER_01 20:33

I think I think that efficiency is the bane of my existence. Um, and I I come up against this a lot because there's one part of me that is like so unhurried and that is true to my nature, and then there is another part of me that does live in corporate America, and I do we do live around people who are, like I said, obsessed with self-optimization and with efficiency. So I'm thinking I'm still discovering that. Like, is that possible? Because what I see even in my in my work, and I'm so grateful that I mainly do, you know, months of contract and then freelance, and so I'm I'm able to kind of pick and choose where I'm putting my time, but I do notice in the corporate world they love speed. So it's like, can you get this done quick? And I'm like, Well, you can't have everything, so if you want speed, you're not going to get quality. And that does go against so much of what I believe in because I think creativity, what a disservice to creativity that you're saying it can just be it can just be created quickly. This this is not I don't look at creativity as a decorative nature. I look at it as something that is thoughtful and it comes from the brains of human beings with years of experience, and how could you just make how could you just make something up in in 30 minutes? It will fall flat later on. I will tell you that. Yeah, the foundation will crumble. Um, and I think a lot of it is letting people see that, letting that unfold because I think people need to experience the like true respect of creativity.

SPEAKER_05 22:08

Yeah. Are you are you uh are you freelance right now? Are you at a at a shop or what?

SPEAKER_01 22:13

I am freelance. I would say right now I'm in I am in a really beautiful situation that I am working at a startup slash nonprofit for mental health. That's called Project Healthy Minds.

SPEAKER_05 22:23

Oh my god, that's right down the middle for you.

SPEAKER_01 22:26

Isn't that amazing? Is everything I've dreamed of. It really is. So I connected with them like three years ago. I think I got connected with the creative director randomly, and which is like, I love this. I love this exist. Um, and it didn't work out because they're in New York and I'm in California. And it was at the time they're like, hey, we want people in New York. Um, and I'm like, I'm a California girl, so that's not gonna happen. And then we got connected three years later, and here we are. So I that is something I love. Love about them is like they really respect the strategy and the craft and pairing the human mind with creativity. What does that look like? But as you know, there's been you know, I've been in the agency culture, and what that is, it's like get it done as quick as you possibly can.

SPEAKER_05 23:07

Go, go, go, go, go, go, go.

SPEAKER_01 23:08

Yeah, and I'm like, we have lost, we have lost the plot.

SPEAKER_05 23:11

You know, I think I think that was a big part in me quitting my job, starting to freelance on my own. Um, because I was like, dude, like I'm not I'm not doing a good job.

SPEAKER_01 23:22

Exactly. And it's like now I am questioning all of my like gift in my character because there is this outside emergency that is so false. It is so made up. I think the false sense of urgency is in everything, not just creativity. Is so insane that I am I am constantly and actively rejecting that. I see myself get like swooped up in it often. I'm like, whoa, Courtney, check yourself. Because it's like that does not, that is not true. Creativity, that's not my gift of creativity. That's not mine. If there's another avenue where someone is ex- they they that that's how they want to express it, great. But being a multidimensional person who can think and go into strategy and make a great foundation, it's like such a pun, it's such a punch in the gut to dismiss all of that.

SPEAKER_05 24:12

Well, let me ask you this. Do you get more out of doing the thing or sharing the thing?

SPEAKER_01 24:18

Mmm, that's such a good question. I think I get more. I think I get more out of doing the thing. And I say that reluctantly because I think sharing in on things is in everything with community people making it outside of yourself is one of the most important things of life. But I'm really thinking about my creative process and when I am doing the thing, like options are endless. I think that the sense of discovery when you are doing creativity, I that is the only time that I lose track of hours. That's the only thing, only time I'm not overthinking about life. That's not that's the only time I'm not thinking about all of the stupid bullshit out there, is that when I'm like pulling inspiration and I'm making things and I'm in it. And I think sometimes this is so pessimistic of me, but sometimes when you share, your hopes and dreams are fucking crushed. So that is like that's the sad part is that you're seriously putting so much of your heart out there, and sometimes the sharing is actually what makes it difficult. And honestly, by the time it gets to market, a lot of the time it's actually not even it doesn't look it doesn't feel or look like my it's been beat up. Exactly. So there is this sense of detaching from it, but then there's also this sense of like, how how could I? How could I detach from it? Because as an artist, I think that is a big portion, is that we are we are attached to it.

SPEAKER_05 25:35

Yeah, it's a piece of yourself.

SPEAKER_01 25:37

It's so exposing. It really is.

SPEAKER_05 25:39

Oh, and you're you're uh you're a very hard on your sleeve kind of person. Is that a fair read? Very sensitive feeling, all of those things.

SPEAKER_01 25:47

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_05 25:49

First in creativity and then socially, do you see that as a weakness or as a strength?

SPEAKER_01 25:56

It's fascinating because I think I've always viewed it as an immense strength, but also it can be so debilitating. I think as an empath, when I'm absorbing feedback, when I'm absorbing people's emotions, all of that, then I'm taken away from myself. And what I need to create and what I need to be a self-expressed person in the world is to be close to myself. So I think it is a huge learning curve of saying I'm a I'm a very big feeler, but I'm not gonna get swept away by my feelings. And to say that I've mastered that, well, I'll never master that, but to say I've actually even confronted that part is not true. Like I, that is a current quest of mine, is that I want to, I and what I do know is I want to continue to wear my heart on my sleeve, and I want to bring that, I will say I want to bring that into corporate America, and that might even be I think people hear that and it's like cute. And it's like, to be honest, I I don't think being gentle and sensitive and tender is cute. I think it is brave and courageous and assertive and life-giving and incredibly important to the corporate world.

SPEAKER_05 27:08

It's so human, so human.

SPEAKER_01 27:12

And I, and that's actually something that I have started to only incorporate this year, is bringing my full self to corporate America. And it is so hard to do because especially as women, I mean, you're you're sending an email and you're like, am I being too friendly? Am I coming off too passive? Am I like I want to be assertive, I want to be taken seriously. And self-censoring like that is actually what becomes that's when I show up as a robot. And if I just go into it saying, like, okay, I'm here to be myself, I probably I might send you like a heart in an email, and I probably will send too many smiley faces, like that is who I am. I am full of sensitivity and I am full of emotion, and I think that's actually what makes me a very, a very present designer.

SPEAKER_05 27:58

What's the mark that you want to leave?

SPEAKER_01 28:00

I really want to see oneness in the world, and I do not say these things in a way of I mean, I keep referring to this thing as like cuteness because I do think that there's this lens on all of these whimsical feelings that's like, oh, like, oh, that's so hopeful. And it's like, but I really, I really believe that, and I don't, and I don't think it's far-fetched that we can merge humanity and corporate America because I I think they've taken on two different forms, and how how bizarre is it that when we are in this setting in corporate America, we are one version of ourselves, and then we go out into our social setting and we are a different version, and it's like, okay, we have to have good discernments while being self-aware. I, you know, I'm not gonna come up to a corporate meeting and talk about my last hinge date, but I am going to talk about the imperfect design process and just like the messiness of it. So the mark that I want to leave is knowing the like healing can happen in healing happens when you do that, and you can show up fully in those spaces. Because I will say that what you actually do in a social setting or a religious organization or in your in your job setting, how you show up starts to show up as your full identity. It does start to trickle into other places. So if I'm showing up to a corporate meeting saying, like, I can't be too kind, I can't be too tender, I can't make any mistakes, it's like, okay, well, then you will start doing that in your friendships, and then now your arms are crossed to everything vulnerable and exposing. And that's a that's a very robotic life. And what I want is a mess, I want a messy life, and I want people to be messy.

SPEAKER_05 29:37

What do you what do you think would change if if society started treating creativity as like this raw human essential thing that it is instead of you know like what we talked about with the classes earlier, like extra?

SPEAKER_01 29:54

I do speak in absolutes a lot, but when I say that I think it would change the entire essence of humanity, I really, really mean it. I think that if we didn't put creativity in a narrow box and if we just labeled it as self-expression, if we let people do that, especially young men, then we would have human beings who are who feel free in the world and who are getting their needs met and who are attuned to themselves and who do not have to go to outlets of violence or uh suppression of their true self. And then they would be able to say, like, I am a messy open person in the world and I'm taking care of it, and I have this outlet of creativity, and all my grief can go here, and it can go to all these other avenues. It doesn't have to go into these little boxes of things. So I think merging those would mean that we we don't have to be, we don't have to be presented as one thing, especially men, we don't have to be presented as this because I think even how it and I do see this evolving a ton, which is so beautiful, but like the role of masculinity is that artists think creativity is whimsical and it's soft and it's tender, and that men aren't allowed to be, you know, expressed in that way. And that is what a disservice to like how robust humanity can be.

SPEAKER_05 31:12

And I know the idea of creativity as a means of healing and liberation is something that feels really central to how you think about art and life. Do you wanna you wanna dive into that a little bit?

SPEAKER_01 31:24

I would love to.

SPEAKER_05 31:25

Give me it.

SPEAKER_01 31:27

Okay, great. Just open up. Yeah, I think that the I mean, I think that there's so so many ways to healing and liberation. And I think art is is one of them. But what I do know about art is that it isn't an elite group, it is not exclusive, it is not only for a certain type of person. And I think that is where that might be an avenue that we've gone down, which is sad that I think sometimes people rule themselves out because they're like, well, I'm I'm not that. And I would like to say everyone can't everyone can be that, and we can actually all nurture each other to be that in a way because it doesn't have to be perfect, doesn't even have to be good. In fact, I want to make I want to make shitty art. And I can't even believe that I'm saying that because I could not have said that a year ago.

SPEAKER_05 32:20

Dude, I've made so much shitty art.

SPEAKER_01 32:22

Isn't it so pretty, isn't it? But the I think the thought of doing it is like it it's so hard. Like things can't be perfect.

SPEAKER_05 32:32

Well, and I think I think once perfectionism becomes the thing, like you've kind of sucked the soul out of it.

SPEAKER_01 32:38

Holy. It's like there's this beautiful poem, it's a a Celtic prayer about the approach, just the approach to things, life, maybe art. I think people could probably name it, whatever they want. And the middle of it is that I, or the end of it is that I have no cherished outcomes. And I think about that often because for me as a person to say I have no cherished outcomes to something is incredibly hard being a person with perfectional anxiety, depression, all the things that make you human. But as an artist, I'm like, okay, that's incredibly freeing to say I don't I can't have an outcome. But I think, of course, in our culture says, like, let's what's what is the outcome? How can we how can we optimize? Let's get to the strategy, let's get to like the the building and like all of this. And it's like, whoa. So I I'm hurt by the dismissal of art in community and wherever the fuck the focus is. I don't even know where the focus is. Is I the focus is on efficiency and uh wealth and all of these things that people have made us believe matter.

SPEAKER_05 33:52

I think just saying something matters, you know? Use your voice however, however that looks for you, you know?

SPEAKER_01 33:59

Well, and I think that's a beautiful way to say it is just saying something. Because a lot of time people are like, I have to say the right thing. It's like you actually don't. I think that when you just say something, then it will ultimately in the end, some way somehow turn into the right thing.

SPEAKER_05 34:14

Um I do I do want to acknowledge something before we go any further. Um, and it is uh over over the last year, I've seen small glimpses that you went through something difficult. Um I never wanted to pry, but I've I've thought a lot about how to hold space um for that if you want to talk about it.

SPEAKER_01 34:41

Thank you. That means a lot.

SPEAKER_05 34:42

Do you want to talk about it?

SPEAKER_01 34:44

I would love to talk about it a little bit. I think that it is a huge part of me forever now. And I think that it has been like a huge part of my grief slash creative journey.

SPEAKER_05 35:00

Well please, I'll let you I'll let you drive.

SPEAKER_01 35:02

Sure. So I think that the I've always I've always been a big feeler. I've always been someone who is interested about people and the world and the whys and the obsessiveness of humanity and why people do the things that they do. And I think the last year really, really heightened that for me. And I'm also not I'm not a stranger to big or negative feelings. I don't even want to say negative, I just want to say big feelings. I don't think the feelings are bad, but I have never really experienced like true grief until the past year has been one of the most grieving years of my entire life. And I think I had I had to think about the world differently, and had to think about creatively differently. And just for context, um, without going into the whole, you know, backstory, police report, court date, all of that. I um was in a shooting. I survived a shooting, which is so um insane to even say out loud, but it's it's very important for me to continue to say out loud to people. Um Yeah, I survived a shooting and that is traumatic, and it could have in every way been deadly and it wasn't. And what I had I had so much grief. And the interesting thing is that I really had to redefine grief because I I think our perception of grief is like something or someone died, and in a way, so much of my life did die, and parts of me did die. Um, but I read this beautiful thing that said grief is the um grave departure from the normal attitudes of life, and that has truly been what the last year has been is that my life was turned upside down. But what this did do was force me to confront myself. This I had so I was living in Denver um with my twin sister when this happened, and I stayed there to heal um with her and one of my best friends for four months, and I finally came back to California, um, and my whole life was different. This is when I saw things in I mean, like I said before, all of the cliche things are just like so true that near-death experiences really do make you it truly gives you a new vision, but it gave me really raw vision. It gave me vision that was like I truly could not be in spaces that were not authentic to me. I was very clear about what I believed, I was very and all the my beliefs have always been so important to me. But I was so immersed in ministry and organized religion, and I found creative, beautiful, gentle friends, and I've met some of the most hospitable people in that. And it is not a place where I can self-express. And after a near death experience, your body, in my experience, like my body would not even let me be in places where I had to be small anymore, like where I could not voice my opinion freely and where it wasn't received in a way of like true advocacy. That is so advocacy is so important to me. So the shooting, in a way, was a way for me to express my advocacy even more. Like it, I thought it would make me. I mean, you would think it would make me angry about the world, and there's a time and place for that, and I am parts of me are, and I want to welcome that because that's real. But what it actually made me do is get unb unbelievably even more like a traumatic surrender to why the fuck is the world this way? Because a lot of it felt senseless, but when you think about it, it's actually not there's so many things that lead up to violence. There's so many, like these were kids, these were teenagers, and I have thought so much about what led to that, and what led to that is lack of attuned care, lack of resources, um, lack, lack of of family systems, lack of able to express um creativity or self-expression or emotions because gun violence actually is self-expression, it's just self-expression in a in a terrible, deadly way. So I've thought so much about like, okay, right now I have so much grief that my life looks so different and I had to do so much physical and emotional healing. My grief goes to creativity. I'm I'm able to paint shitty things, like I'm able to write constantly, I'm able to um make art that talks about the feelings of like what the loneliness that these kids must have felt, and then the loneliness loneliness that I felt. But I think about what what outlet do they have? What outlet do other people have if they do not have creativity? And if other people might, they might actually have healthy outlets, and that's wonderful. Mine happens to be creativity, but when people don't have that, this actually is a this is a result of not having those. So that I think the the like portal of creativity that I had for all of my grief to go was truly life-saving, and I don't I really don't put that lightly. So I think creativity is not it can be playful and whimsical. I think it can be so many things, but for me, it is a deep well of something that made me uncover things, be curious, and think about humanity, people, and myself in a way that said, like, what what is happening here? And I've unfolded so much because of that. Unfolded so much of myself, I've unfolded so much of um organizations, I've unfolded so much of resources, people, systems of power, communities, marginalized communities, systemic racism, like all that. I never thought that creativity would be in all of those things, but it is it is truly deeply immersed in all of those things.

SPEAKER_05 41:38

Courtney, how are you how are you processing living in a culture where this just keeps fucking happening?

SPEAKER_01 41:45

It is it is truly maddening, and it was actually maddening to me even before it happened to me, and then having it happen. I want to say that I was shocked, but I also want to say, and this is I I'm not downplaying the seriousness of it because it is so serious to me that I want society to realize that it isn't as shocking that it happened because there are so many systems at play that helped that happen. There, and that's why when we see defunded systems, we see defunded resources, we see toxic masculinity, we see like all of these oppressive things happening. Sometimes people are like, maybe it's not that big of a deal. I am I am telling you, all those little micro things lead to a lead to a macro event of violence. And I held violence on the street for one night. The same thing happened again the night two I those are that that is happening constantly. Not I just experienced it one night. These people are in violent situations every night, these people are in communities where they're neglected, other people are in in communities where they're neglected. So it's like, where what what are we doing for for liberation and healing? Because what we're doing is not working, and and the idea of so many conversations after this happened, or what is their punishment going to be? Because people were very concerned with their punishment, and it was a lot of older white people who thought that we um thought we would be on the same page, and I actually don't believe that the obsessive idea with like punitive punishment is restorative. I believe that there's rehabilitation, there's nurturing, there's creativity, there's expression, all of those things are actually how you get a flourishing society, not by oppressing people even more, not by stifling them even more, not by putting them in in um terrible systems that suppress them in a way that says you can't now you can't self-express. What would they be like if they could self-express?

SPEAKER_05 44:06

Uh Courtney, your outlook on this whole thing is very I don't know the words. I don't know the words, but it's it's very um encouraging, maybe. Uh and and I don't know, it kind of makes me it kind of makes me feel hopeful. That is all I want. Um so let's let's take a breath for a second. Yeah, come down for a second. Um and I I I don't think we would be able to I don't think this would be valid if if you and I sat down and did not talk for a moment about our shared love for Dallas Green.

SPEAKER_01 44:44

Oh my gosh. We have to. We we owe it to him.

SPEAKER_05 44:48

Dude, I I I I had the chance to see him a few weeks ago at when we were Young. Um, he was playing with Alexis on fire. It's the first time I've ever seen him outside of City in Color. And I was just, it was so great.

SPEAKER_01 45:01

What's his essence like? Because I do feel like that is a different It's a different job. That's a different expression of him.

SPEAKER_05 45:08

You know, it it it still it still just kind of felt like him. Oh, well, and that's he didn't dress different, he didn't present different.

SPEAKER_01 45:15

He didn't He's such an inspo. He is that man's himself, even in okay, he's acoustic guitar, but then he's going into, you know, like Alexis on fire, he can still be himself. That's like what a dream.

SPEAKER_05 45:27

Yeah, it's wild. And like I I saw him probably with with City and Color, probably about a year or so ago. Dude, I I had a full-on emotional experience.

SPEAKER_01 45:39

It's truly a spiritual thing. I I am forever changed by him. I really am. And I meet very few people who know of him. And but the thing I love about him, he doesn't care who knows about him. He cares about the people who do know about him. Like he that he's a humble man. He's so pretty. He's so pretty. I need to know more about his personal life. Does he have a wife? Does he have a girlfriend? Do you know? Like, I've looked this up. So I'm like, what is your vibe? I just want to know. I want to talk to him.

SPEAKER_05 46:07

God, I love it. Um, you want to go tofficing?

SPEAKER_01 46:10

Great. Okay, I love that.

SPEAKER_05 46:12

Yeah, I mean, I don't think there's an easy way to get into this one, but when you're gone, what do you hope people say about you?

SPEAKER_01 46:18

God, so beautiful. And I even honestly before the incident, I've I've thought about this a lot. I truly I want I want people to say exactly what you said is that wear my heart on my sleeve. I want people to say that I was tender and thoughtful and empathetic. Almost to the point of embarrassment. Like, I actually don't care how embarrassed how embarrassing it is that I am a feeler and I don't care if I'm crying in public and I'll never apologize for crying. And I want to make other people feel free to also not apologize for crying.

SPEAKER_05 46:55

That's strength.

SPEAKER_01 46:56

It's so interesting because it it felt not like strength for so long, or sometimes I even go back and forth being like, God, I'm such an emo like I'm so emotional and I'm so sensitive. And it's like, now part of me, m most of me is like, yeah, I've got I took so much work to be this sensitive, honestly. And I think what how courageous it is to it is so brave to be a feeler. It's like you and it actually you will get rejected sometimes, and you have to be okay with that.

SPEAKER_05 47:25

I am I'm almost 20 years into my career, and I still struggle with like with the rejection aspect of it. Like I think I think my gut reaction is to get mad at first.

SPEAKER_01 47:36

I like you don't get art then, obviously.

SPEAKER_05 47:38

It's you not it's like yeah, it's like go home. You just say thank you and move on.

SPEAKER_01 47:44

For real.

SPEAKER_05 47:45

Oh man. Finish the thought.

SPEAKER_01 47:48

Creativity requires Exposure, and I mean like being ripped open, vulnerability.

SPEAKER_05 47:55

What would your last meal be?

SPEAKER_01 47:57

You know what? This is really niche. And I and someone reminded me of this the other day. Some people are gonna think this is disgusting, and because it is. Um, and this also might be very Michigan. I feel like people in California don't eat this, but my last meal would be a KFC famous bowl. Ever had it?

SPEAKER_04 48:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 48:16

I'm telling you, like it was so that was one of the first things I had in the hospital when I woke up, and I was like, I want a famous bowl. And my family's like, of course we eat whatever you want. And it still hits seriously the same. It is so good.

SPEAKER_05 48:29

Um, what's the what's the best or the worst advice that you've ever received?

SPEAKER_01 48:34

Ooh. That's really good. I it sound it's so and it's what I've been saying this whole time, and it it sounds so trite. And I used to be so against cliches to the point where I'm like, no, it has to be more poetic, but I truly do believe the best advice is to be yourself.

SPEAKER_05 48:55

That's so good.

SPEAKER_01 48:56

I really mean it, and I think I whenever people would say that I'm like, mm, not poetic enough, say something better, and it's like there's there's nothing better than that. There is nothing better than truly being yourself, and but you have to figure out what yourself is because a lot of time we'll convince ourselves that our self is actually all these self-imposed or all these outside imposed things, and there's like so much noise, and then you're like operating in this weird puppetry that you thought was yourself, and it is truly worth all the exposure, the vulnerability, the rejection to be yourself. You will be walking in the world like like you're walking on water.

SPEAKER_05 49:29

You know what's interesting is I I don't think I fully grasp who I was until after I quit my job, which I think directly relates to like how I get to express my creativity. So I think that just I think that just supports what you've been saying.

SPEAKER_01 49:44

I love when things play out in like we can actually see like it in in practice.

SPEAKER_05 49:50

Um what's your what's your favorite distraction?

SPEAKER_01 49:53

Oh man, my favorite distraction. Well, okay, the my favorite distraction if I if I want to present in a way that I'm like so artsy and put together is like is painting, which has been a really fun new discovery because I do so much digitally on my computer that I've been saying seriously for two years that I want to do more things like with like actually with my hands, and I only started doing it this year.

SPEAKER_05 50:18

Have you have you considered exhibiting at all?

SPEAKER_01 50:21

That is such a beautiful thought because I have only said that out loud once, and I only said it to my twin sister because she is my safest space, and I have not been courageous enough to say it out loud to anyone else because then they might hold me accountable, and then I would have to do it. So you just kind of inspired me to maybe say it out loud to other people because yeah, then I would have to I would have to.

SPEAKER_05 50:43

Oh Courtney, I love that. I love that.

SPEAKER_01 50:45

This is gonna be like a breakthrough moment. So it's it's recorded, so now I can't go back on it.

SPEAKER_05 50:49

Hell yes. Yeah, it's documented forever and ever and ever and ever and ever. Uh, what's a hill you die on?

SPEAKER_01 50:55

Men can be emotional, and that toxic masculinity is hurting everyone, not just men. And that actually being emotional is masculine. I mean, I'm seriously still waiting for my emotional sensitive man, but I know he's out there. He's coming. I'm truly in no rush. I want authenticity, so that is no problem. I I'm seeing so many heartfelt, sensitive, emotional advocating men, and I'm also seeing so many that are following the orange man, which is so scary.

SPEAKER_05 51:30

I do not envy dating in 2025.

SPEAKER_01 51:32

It is truly the most convoluted, layered, not fun thing. It's supposed to be fun. It's supposed to be discovery, and a lot of it is like lack of true connection, and that just could never work for me.

SPEAKER_05 51:48

Uh, do you do you have any regrets?

SPEAKER_01 51:50

Wow, okay. This is gonna make me go into a spiral of all the things that I regret. I think it would be I think it would be very inhumane for me to say that I don't have any regrets. This is making me think some things. And I'm also giving myself permission in my life to take things back or like change my mind tomorrow or be wrong about things. So I think in my highest self, I would say like I don't have any regrets because of course in the other trait way it led me to X, Y, and Z. That's that's truly what I want to believe. So I will say that with 50% of my chest, and then the other 50% I will say I do have so many regrets for any time that I was not myself, or that I held back a belief, or that I didn't advocate for X, Y, and Z, because that is truly what lights me up. I I will go on this forever about self-expression, about creativity and about communities and healing and all of that. Anytime that I don't say that in a group of people who are maybe saying the opposite, that's a big regret for me. So I I want to continue being that person who maybe says things in a group that like I know no one's really gonna like and I really don't care.

SPEAKER_05 52:55

I love that. Um, last question. Are you okay?

SPEAKER_01 53:02

That is so sweet, and I am going to be okay.

SPEAKER_05 53:07

It's about it's about progress, right?

SPEAKER_01 53:09

It really is. And I do think there is something I understand the obsession with everyone saying like I'm fine, I'm okay. Because there is such a fear of hard feelings, like loneliness, all of that. I actually totally get why people would reject hard feelings because that means that you have to feel them. But for me to say, yeah, I'm happy, I'm totally okay, is a lie, and I'm not a liar. So I have full faith that at I that I will be okay. I think right now I'm still in such a season of like healing and tenderness and all that. That is a very interesting thing that I noticed about I think organized religion is that there is this obsession to move quickly past hard feelings because they're gonna be taken care of by this third party. And the thing that actually felt most ringing to me was to say, like, I'm sad right now. I'm sad, and there's actually I can't put up a mask to say that everything is beautiful and that there's like there's this under underlying me, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 54:13

So I think who's the mask even for, you know?

SPEAKER_01 54:18

Truly, that is that is seriously the big question is who is it for? Is it protecting me? Is it protecting them? It's like it really is all it's doing is hiding me, and there's nothing about me that I want to hide.

SPEAKER_05 54:31

So great. Courtney, before we before we wrap it up, um, where can people find you if you want that?

SPEAKER_01 54:37

Ooh, yes, please find me on the gram. Um, my first and last name, Courtney Lauer, and my website, um, CourtneyLauer.me. And I would love to chat and connect about the human experience and feelings and all the things.

SPEAKER_05 54:53

Courtney, thank you for your vulnerability. Thank you for figuring out a fucking date to do this.

SPEAKER_01 55:00

Thank you for your patience. Thank you for pursuing. Thank you for all your great questions. I so appreciate your mind. I'm so sorry this exists.

SPEAKER_05 55:07

Thank you, thank you, and thank you for closing out the season with us.

SPEAKER_01 55:10

Oh my gosh, I was the last. Well, I mean Greg, what do you mean? Like, yeah, you're the last of this has been put off for so long. Okay, well, I planned this strategically so that I can.

SPEAKER_05 55:21

Congratulations. I hope you're happy.

SPEAKER_01 55:23

I am.

SPEAKER_05 55:24

All right, let's get out of here.

SPEAKER_01 55:25

All right, see ya.

SPEAKER_00 55:26

Can I ask some questions?

SPEAKER_05 55:28

Yes, let's go, please.

SPEAKER_00 55:29

I have some questions for you guys. Um, how much time do you guys think of yourselves as kids? And how how do you consider yourself? Well, how are you thinking about yourself?

SPEAKER_05 55:38

I think I look at myself compared to who I am today. I think often I try to figure out how the fuck I got here.

SPEAKER_00 55:46

Okay.

SPEAKER_05 55:47

Grew up poor. I don't know what happened.

unknown 55:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 55:50

Do you know what I mean? How'd you get here?

SPEAKER_05 55:52

I had a I mean, I had a a happy childhood. You know, my parents gave us so much love and did the best they could to give us everything we needed. I think about some of the things like when I was a kid that I was running from, you know, kids would make fun of my shoes or my pants or whatever. You know what I mean?

SPEAKER_00 56:08

Like Do you feel like your adult Aaron is rebelling against the people who teased or made fun of or made baby Aaron uncomfortable?

SPEAKER_05 56:20

Maybe. I would love I would love to shove it in their fucking faces.

SPEAKER_00 56:23

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 56:23

I would love that. But also it's like they're probably different people too.

SPEAKER_00 56:30

So it's it's it's vengeance, it's vengeance for baby Aaron.

SPEAKER_05 56:34

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 56:35

That's a my new band name, by the way. I was just gonna say that's my next album title.

SPEAKER_05 56:41

Um I just I just wanted to fit in. Desperately, desperately just wanted to fit in. I just wanted acceptance and some fucking friends. Um, but you know, I I had the I had the tight jeans, I had the mullet way after it was acceptable. I know it's cool again, but it was gonna say mullets are back. It was not when I was doing my thing.

SPEAKER_02 57:04

I wanted the exact opposite. I was always pushing to be different to the point of like hyper cringe.

SPEAKER_05 57:10

Okay, well, I think that's where I found my safe space is is like I found that acceptance, but I didn't find it in other people.

SPEAKER_00 57:17

You know what I mean? Oh, okay, cool.

SPEAKER_05 57:19

Yeah, it is cool.

SPEAKER_00 57:21

What about you, Joe? You don't think about bit little baby Joe very much?

SPEAKER_02 57:24

I I I don't go back to myself that often. What I do think about all the time is the people that supported me early in my life, but rarely am I self-aware enough to be like, all right, who was I and who am I now? It does feel as though oftentimes I'm in survival mode and that I'm trying to just accomplish the things I want right now. And rarely am I checking that with, well, what did I want back in the day? Now, when I the the infrequent times I do, I do see things, it's like sparks of like what have turned into really important things for me now. Like things that I used to struggle with when I was a kid. It's like that makes way more sense to me now because of who I am. I remember um when I was really young, a friend of mine um we uh we wanted to do just like a stupid little short film with like our action figures. And we we took my mom's like video camera and we got the action figures together and we started doing it, and I was fucking miserable. I hated it. I was so upset, nothing was like the way I wanted it to look. And I'm like, oh, that was just like the roots of like I want this to look a certain way, and I didn't know how to achieve that. And now it's like I have that in a much healthier dynamic. At the time, I was like, why the fuck? Why am I so pissed? Now it makes sense.

SPEAKER_00 58:45

Amber, you do you do you think about little Amber a lot? I think about so I my answer has three parts, and they're none of them are exciting. Um, the first one is because Mario will ask me stuff like when you were a kid, blah blah blah blah.

SPEAKER_04 59:00

That's great.

SPEAKER_00 59:00

So he's always asked me about stuff like that. And then and Vincent too will ask me, my kid will ask me about like me when I was his age. Did I do this? Did I do that? Um, and then I think about myself sometimes when I think about my family, specifically like my parents. Um, you know, some of it's a little nostalgia, and I think about like, oh, I remember talking to my mom like this, and now I talk to her like this, and you know, things like that. Um, and then the third part is just I one thing that Courtney said was that we all just are kind of like children in adult bodies. And I I really feel like that. Like a lot of times the the most introspective I am when I think about myself as a kid is how I am not any different now. I have the same thought pro like was I was I a 40-year-old child or am I a five-year-old 40-year-old children? You know what I mean? Like what like why do I still have the same thought processes that I feel like I did as a kid? So yeah, that's the only time that I think about them. Like, I feel like I have not changed in 35 years. You know what I mean? Like, how am I how is that possible? Those are the really the only things I think about.

SPEAKER_05 1:00:08

I think you just fucked up my brain.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:10

I'm sorry. Yeah, that was tough. That was a little painful, but in a good way.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:14

Did it make sense though?

SPEAKER_02 1:00:15

It did. That's why I heard it.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:17

Yeah. Okay.

unknown 1:00:18

There.

SPEAKER_05 1:00:20

Um, Amber, I'm I'm curious, and I don't know how to phrase this, but I know that you've had experiences with gun violence as well. Did you have any kind of thought or reaction to listening to her story as it as it relates to yours?

SPEAKER_00 1:00:35

Mostly in comparing the age differences and thinking, how would I have handled it if I were older? And then thinking about my parents who were experienced it with me, who were in their, let's see, I was 10, so they were in their late 40s and I was 10. First of all, none of us were physically harmed, so I can't compare too deeply on that. But we obviously were, you know, trauma, it was a traumatic experience. We were emotionally harmed, we were mentally harmed by it. Um, I think that I am, I think that kids are so resilient that I was able to move past it a lot more easily than my parents. And I don't want to say easily because it wasn't easy. It was as a kid, it it as a kid you react differently. So I think that's really what I was thinking mostly is the comparison part. I mean, I slept with my lights on for months. I slept in my parents' room for weeks because I couldn't be alone. Um, it's still to this day, I you know, Erin, we've talked about this in detail. I I have a hard time being alone at night, even now as an adult, just because it I get anxious about it. Um, so there's definitely scarring and stuff. And I think that's really what my, what I was, what I was listening to in Courtney what when she was talking is how as an adult, how do you handle this differently than you do as a child? I never want to find out, right? I'm good.

SPEAKER_04 1:02:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:12

But I I know how I handled it as a kid. I know how it affected me as a kid. And listening to her talk about how it affected her as an adult was very enlightening for me and made me really think about my situation too in that in that way and how it affected my parents as adults experiencing it.

SPEAKER_05 1:02:30

It's really, it's really admirable too to see where she puts that energy, right? She she pours it back into her creativity and back into her like sense of curiosity. I just I wish I had more to I mean, I don't wish I had more to compare, but no, right. Um but to um what's the word I'm thinking of?

SPEAKER_02 1:02:52

I think it's okay to say I wish I could empathize deeper with it than but without actually going through the trauma itself. I think that's a that's a very that's a very beautiful thing to say. I um, you know, I it made me think about I've always struggled with why I feel my favorite art comes from artists that are going through something or have like a darker past or something like that. And I'm appreciative to Courtney for kind of turning my perspective around in that it's because it represents healing. And I don't know that I've ever really like she mentioned that that type of heart can be healing and can be a form of healing, and I've never thought about it like that.

SPEAKER_05 1:03:33

Well, and and and her art and even her work and design and the way she uses it, like it feels very uplifting. Yeah, it feels very optimistic, like she's this like ray of fucking strength. Yeah, that um I don't know, dude. I don't know how she's doing it, but I but I love that she is. I fucking love that she is for a thousand reasons.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:54

You know, the word the word survivor is super strong and it's it's used in many different ways. And I think that I think that this is one of those situations where Courtney is a survivor, not just because she survived what she went through and physically overcame it, but also because she survived mentally. And I think that's good too. I think that's I think that's important to point out is that she she's you know strong and she's capable and she's she's you know working through it in the in using all the tools that she can. And I think that's also surviving because in a situation like that, you can very easily retreat inside yourself and be depressed or be hateful or, you know, things like that. But instead she's not, she's she's surviving through it mentally and emotionally. I think that's really important.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:44

Um I want I I really came into this wanting to make a statement that I've never really said out loud, but I've always felt. And um the reason I've never really said it out loud is it feels slightly judgmental of other people, but I kind of want to talk about it a little bit. Well, we have editing, so we'll Okay, great. So I I perceive religion as the easy way out. Oh, I just I view it as the easy way out because to just be a human and just to be here and treat other people the way that they should be treated without having this like incentive above you. I I I think that that is a harder way to live. Do you agree with that?

SPEAKER_00 1:05:23

I mean, I get that, but I don't think that's the basis of religion. Yeah, I don't either. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 1:05:28

And and and I I don't have religion in my life at all. I don't need it, I don't want it. Yeah. Um I do hear and completely, completely understand what you're saying, Joe. But I'm also if you if you need the incentive to not be a dick bag, take the incentive. I'm not saying that's why everybody does it. I'm just saying Right.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:52

I think there are other facets to religion aside from just trying to be a good person. Um, like for instance, my parents are very religious. They've gone to church every Sunday all of their lives. Um, and it's a lot of the community aspect of it. It's a lot of people in their age range and um in their seasons of life that they can talk to and be around and um, you know, have conversations with. And yeah, you know, there's it's it's based around scripture and prayer and things like that. But it's also these are people that they then go to lunch with and talk about the weather and things like that. So for them, it's not so much around, you know, God wants me to be a good person so I can go to heaven. To them, it's more about let's let's commune with like minded people and and form these friendships and relationships and bonds.

SPEAKER_05 1:06:50

So I I love the idea of spirituality. I love being can or the idea of being connected to something bigger. My issue is with organized religion. Yeah, of course. On one hand, it is this like sense of community and it and and it gives a lot of people a place of belonging and purpose, but it's also a tool of control and manipulation and fuckery. Right. I think I think that aspect is why I don't feel like I need it or want it. Yeah. You know?

SPEAKER_02 1:07:24

Yeah. When I think about my experience with religion, it's it's pretty one street where it's you know, it's a it's a very specific type of religion and it's a very specific type of individual that interacts with it. So I would say it's a very biased perspective because it's based off of really very few. I you know, I think that is such a large, it's a huge word religion encompasses so much.

SPEAKER_05 1:07:50

And the weaponization of it, um, I mean it's always been weaponized, but like it's so loud, I think, right now, because of social media now, blah blah blah. Yeah. Um it's it's almost so like I grew up raised the the people in religion are the good guys, you know. Right. Yeah, right. And yes. Maybe it is the the way that it's being weaponized today that I'm just like, you don't sound like the good guys.

SPEAKER_02 1:08:14

Yeah, yeah. I yeah, I'm certain that's where a lot of a lot of my opinion comes from. You're right. It's just what we're in right now and how deep we are.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:23

I I definitely have had varying experiences um in religion. And my husband is Catholic, very Catholic, and I've never had any Catholic experiences until I married him. And um, you know, there's um a church that he goes to that some friends of mine go to, and it's a very progressive Catholic church, and it's very warm and inviting and very thanks, bud. Um, it's very warm and inviting and accepting of everyone. And that kind of thing, you know, I I I'm okay with. I'm okay with being a part of, and I'm okay with being in, and the community aspect for my parents feels good, but it's just like you said, this organized religion and this thought that my God is better than your God. Right. And because we don't have the same God, we now have to have a war about it, and there has to be fighting, we have to say terrible things to each other. It's just all very hypocritical, and that I'm not okay with.

SPEAKER_05 1:09:15

Uh, I think we're done here.

unknown 1:09:17

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 1:09:18

Yeah, agreed. That's it for season six, babes. That's it. Season seven. We don't have a solid date, but we know it'll come this spring. And and I feel like if I say it out loud, it will happen and publish it, and then now we have to do it. Say it. Uh season seven's gonna look a little bit different uh because we're we're moving from this um audio only format into video. We're really excited about that. We have some we we have some shit to figure out.

SPEAKER_00 1:09:49

Uh I'm excited for video. People can see your hair.

SPEAKER_05 1:09:51

I just got a haircut.

SPEAKER_00 1:09:53

People can see this little piece of lint on my microphone.

SPEAKER_05 1:09:55

Yeah, you're gonna need to get your shit together before we all right.

SPEAKER_00 1:09:58

Let's be nice.

SPEAKER_05 1:09:59

Okay, I'm sorry. All right, we will certainly see you in season seven and oh, probably before that.

SPEAKER_00 1:10:06

Bye!

SPEAKER_03 1:10:07

Getting tired of you and all these noises in my head. I can't seem to make them go away.

SPEAKER_00 1:10:15

Bad Idea Social Club is an independent podcast made possible by donations, merch sales, and reviews.

SPEAKER_02 1:10:20

Graphic designer Aaron McCall is our host, producer, editor, and writer. Co-hosts are Amber Gray and me, Joe Madison.

SPEAKER_00 1:10:26

Music by Mike Meines and the branches. Follow along wherever you get your podcast.