AB: Make Them Move

AB (DJ, creative) sits down with Aaron McCall to talk about confidence, rejection, and how your sense of self evolves as you move through new experiences. He gets into music as both expression and connection, the push and pull of reading a room while staying true to your own voice, and how failure, fatherhood, and life experience shaped the way he moves through the world. They talk creativity, self-awareness, faith, the creative scene, and how to keep getting better without losing yourself in the process.

Keep up with AB:
everythingab.com
IG: @ab.everywhere

——
This episode is supported by:
Creative Mornings Grand Rapids
Merchants & Makers
Revue
——
Writer/Producer/Editor/Host:
Aaron McCall
aaronmccall.net
IG: @aaron_mccall
——
Co-Host/Sidekick/Photographer:
Joe Matteson
themattesons.co
IG: @joe_dustin
——
Music:
"Noises" by Mike Mains & The Branches
——
Support the Podcast:
Buy Merch
——
Follow Bad Idea Social Club:
badideasocialclub.com
IG: @badideasocialclub

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:53

Do you have a good voice? Yes. Check that box off. Can you play my walk up song? Yes, I can. Can you start it at 18 seconds? I don't know.

SPEAKER_04 1:02

I don't know Tommy.

SPEAKER_02 1:23

I've gotten my eyebrows done. Have you? Waxed? I mean, I've not had anything added to it. Like your freaky little eyebrows. Yes. Alright, man. Let's get your freaky deaky eyebrows into the game.

SPEAKER_00 1:40

They're always ready, bro.

SPEAKER_02 1:42

They're receding but ready. Hey everybody, welcome back to Bad Idea Social Club. My name is Aaron McCall.

SPEAKER_00 1:50

And I'm Joe Madison.

SPEAKER_02 1:52

This time it's Adrian Butler. Now, he he goes by A B, and I was given very specific instructions, or I guess direction, that uh he only goes by Adrian if uh you're mad at him or or if you're madly in love with him. I am personally still trying to work out some very complicated feelings. So A B is for now. For now. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. A B is a DJ, and he's got his hands in like 50 other creative projects too. But very quickly, this conversation became something way more than about music. Like, like we got into identity and rejection, um, using your voice with intention and uh staying uh honest in a world that like keeps uh uh rewarding bullshit. It's fucking gross out there, man.

SPEAKER_00 2:52

I completely agree, but I do think that there's two sides to it, and I've been trying to really focus on the side that's pushing back against the bullshit.

SPEAKER_02 3:00

And I mean you kind of almost have to to keep yourself seen to survive.

SPEAKER_00 3:05

Yeah, I completely agree. And I think that there are sparks of it being very prevalent that it's starting to work and that things are like the pendulum is starting to swing the other way.

SPEAKER_02 3:16

I fucking hope so, man. Yeah. Um, but yeah, we we we we talked about family, we talked about faith, uh, and his perspective on the creative community that he's a part of uh here in Grand Rapids and and what music is beyond sound, you know. Um and you know, we both we both come from like music backgrounds. Like dude, when I was growing up, music was all there was to me. There was nothing else.

SPEAKER_00 3:41

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 3:42

It's weird, you know, because you and I, this podcast, like like we talk a lot about like being yourself and like and like sticking to your guns and all that stuff. Uh but you know, the the second you put anything out into the world, like as an artist or as like a guy, even there's this pressure to shape it and clean it up and and make it land a certain way.

SPEAKER_00 4:07

I I find for myself that's actually that's starting to play a part earlier in the process before I even release something. I'll give you an example. I've been wanting to put out this behind the scenes video for a shoe I did recently that I just find really fascinating, and I I want to share it with people that like our stuff. But I have this one idea that I want to accomplish for it, and I can't get over that hurdle, and it's literally stopping me from creating that content. So wanting to shape it and clean it and make it what I want is preventing me at the door from even getting it out.

SPEAKER_02 4:42

For me, like it's so easy to get lost in the in the Instagram of it. Like, I know what I like as much as I want to fight against uh creating for approval because that sucks. Soul sucking. Dude, I fall into it. If if anybody on here follows me on Instagram, and if you see like like long stretches where I'm not posting anything, yeah, that's because that's because I'm having a moment. Okay that's because I'm dealing with it.

SPEAKER_00 5:13

We need to huddle around you in those moments. Aaron's having a moment. I just need dude. Sometimes I just need a good hug, you know? Um, okay, so before we dive in, don't forget to follow wherever you're listening. Leave a five-star review, and don't forget to tell your friends.

SPEAKER_02 5:26

Also, this thing runs off of merch sales, listener support, and reviews. So if you get a minute, go give us a little bit of love. Uh, maybe buy a t-shirt. Um, and real just also, real quick, you're gonna see like a little a little something on the end of my nose. Um, it's just dry skin, it's not a burger.

SPEAKER_05 5:48

Grow up.

SPEAKER_02 5:49

Grow up. Right. Um, anyways, try to ignore it. And here's my conversation with A B.

SPEAKER_01 5:57

Is this good? I feel like this is good. This sounds good. Yeah, okay.

SPEAKER_02 6:00

Yeah. But man, you've got you've got this presence about you. You know that.

SPEAKER_01 6:05

Like uh, yes, I do now.

unknown 6:08

Good, good.

SPEAKER_02 6:09

Because it's like it's like dude, it's like it's it's the way you move, the way you show up. It all feels very intentional.

SPEAKER_01 6:15

I like people, bro. So like if I get to be around people, that I'm just I'm gonna be happy. It's that simple. Uh kinda. I think that that's how I that's how I learn. I learn from people. Yeah. You know what I'm saying? Like, I I'm sucked at studying. College was not great for me. Yeah. But if I can get into a conversation with people, I gain knowledge, I gain like understanding um of them and and probably of myself too. So it's probably selfish a little bit too, right? All good though. You know, dude.

SPEAKER_02 6:52

I think I think the level of confidence that like you bring into a room is is and and maybe I'm pretty sure.

SPEAKER_01 6:59

No, you're saying this more than anybody that I've heard say this uh in a long time. I I I don't I think I think probably because I got rejected, bro. Like that's gotta be what it is. What do you mean? I got getting rejected in high school by girls and losing, um, get you know, going through a divorce, and you know saying like these things where you like try to fit in and and you don't, and then you're then you realize, well, fuck it. Like, I tried to be this thing for these people, it didn't work. I I just gotta do me like as hard as possible.

SPEAKER_02 7:35

So so it's not something that was like Does that make sense? It does make sense, uh, because I was also not like accepted, you know what I mean? I mean, I had dude, I had a I had a mullet till I was a freshman in high school. And it's like in not in not like in not like the cool ones that you see today, like it was bad. Like I had like I with I had hair parted down the middle, yeah, and then it only came to like like just below my eyes, and then went down to the middle of my back. Yeah, that was that was talk about talk about having bad luck with girls.

SPEAKER_01 8:06

Hey, hey, that that was um, you know, and and I would have to say, like, like white dudes didn't get dope haircuts back then. No, it wasn't the thing. Crossover.

SPEAKER_02 8:21

And honestly, I feel like we're still kind of working on it.

SPEAKER_01 8:24

Still trying to figure it out. Yeah, yeah, but some of the mullets I see now have some like some fade to them, so they're like, you know, they make a little more sense. Yeah, there's a little sense. Yeah, yeah. But I I would say you probably you probably yeah, that was a hard time for you. I'm sorry.

SPEAKER_02 8:43

Man, so so so the confidence that you that you kind of carry around today.

SPEAKER_01 8:47

I mean, I think it's because you have to find that. Oh, yeah, yeah, 100%. 100%. I had to find it, I still do have to find it, you know what I mean? Um there's I feel like there's always um something that comes up that you know makes me question how good I am at what I'm doing, or um if I need to pivot or adjust. I feel like that's that's like a constant thing to have to push back against or figure out in some s some way. Sometimes it's a big way, sometimes it's a small way. I DJ primarily, right? You know what I mean? Um 46, you know what I mean? Um listening to all the new music is not my natural place now. Yeah, when I was when I was first starting DJing when I was in my early twenties, listening to all the new music was all I did, you know what I'm saying? I had energy, time, I didn't have to sleep as much. Yeah. Um I I could just I was always you know, and and you and I was a I was I was in different environments, you know what I'm saying? I was hanging out with friends all the time. It was like music, music, music, music. I was making music, I was rapping, I was just like music, music, music. Now I'm 46, I I've got kids. You know, say my my oldest daughter is getting married um this September. Yeah, that's crazy. She's 23. Um, shout out to Amara.

SPEAKER_04 10:16

Oh, I love that.

SPEAKER_01 10:17

Um, and then and I've got an eight-year-old, 11-year-old, and and I and my wife, who I love and love spending time with. You know what I'm saying? So my time is not the same. So listening to music, new music is like some of it, some of it is good, some of it sucks, and and sometimes I'm like, I don't have time to just I don't have eight hours to just To just get in it. To just get in it like that, you know what I mean? So then that means that Um There'll be a man I'm being vulnerable. There'll be a DJ set where I I DJ and I'm like, oh shit, like I should have, should I have gotten you know what I'm saying? Should I have gone deeper into like this certain space? Was I not able to get as deep into it because I don't know it or like it even? Because I mean honestly, there's some new music that that I just don't like.

SPEAKER_02 11:08

And you still gotta bring that forward.

SPEAKER_01 11:10

But I still gotta I still gotta be relevant, you know what I'm saying? Sometimes I got so so so sometimes I'm trying to like use some of the new music to hook people into music that this new music was influenced by. Does that make sense? Oh, I love that. Does that make sense? You know what I'm saying? So I'm like, I'll give you like some of this new shit that you like so that I can like show you like the segue into the other shit that this came from that that I like more.

SPEAKER_02 11:35

So then when you're like in it, right? Um do you find yourself like leading the room or are you responding to it?

SPEAKER_01 11:44

Uh I respond to it and then I lead it. What is that is that process? It's like I lead it and then I and then I respond and it's like a call and response the whole time. Yeah. Yeah, it's like it gives. It's like so it it dep it depends on like if I'm if I'm if I'm the only one DJing, then I get to set the room, right? So I get to decide like how do I want people to feel when they get in here. You know what I'm saying? And then I I do what I want people to feel. But then if they're not responding the way I want to, then I now I'm starting to like, you know, I I it's like it's like you have you you make a choice, and then you have three choices that that like come from that, and you decide like which it's like that path. Like we're gonna we're gonna we're all going to walk down this path, you know, saying to this lake, and the lake is like the party. But along that path, there's three other ways you can go. You can go this way that's like more treacherous and adventurous, you can take like this chill path to the lake, or you could take this one in the middle where you like stop and get some coffee and have some drinks, and then and then now you're at the lake. You know, does it does that make sense? Yeah. So then I'm like, each time I play a song, I'm trying to decide like I'm reading the crowd, and I'm like, oh, like they're vibing like in this way, so then this other choice will probably be better for them. They're vibing in this way, this choice will be better for the does that yeah.

SPEAKER_02 13:11

So so so do you go in with a set list or do you just kind of just feel it and go?

SPEAKER_01 13:16

I have I don't have a set list. So I don't, I don't, I don't have a set list.

SPEAKER_02 13:20

That sounds terrible.

SPEAKER_01 13:21

In terms It's a lot of work mentally. I have I I do have I have a playlist of of songs that I know I'm going to play at some point. Um, and I I do have like I would say three to five ideas of like how I'm gonna start, and then I do have some ideas of like something in the middle, but I don't have like a set list, like like if I was you've been in a band.

SPEAKER_02 13:47

Oh yeah.

SPEAKER_01 13:47

Yeah, I don't have a set list like that. I don't have like I'm doing this song and then this song and then this song and then this song.

unknown 13:53

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 13:54

There are some DJs that do that.

SPEAKER_02 13:56

You're you're you're probably taking out the like really creative element of like I think so.

SPEAKER_01 14:02

I think so. I think I uh I think it's a give and take. I think you have to If I had a set list, I think um I could nail some transitions. There'll be less mistakes, you know what I'm saying? Like I'm not you know I mean, like there'll be some really cool moments where something happens musically that that uh obviously I've rehearsed it and that sort of thing, you know what I'm saying? So like precision-wise, like that that could be cool. I I just I just like feeding off the energy in the room and and seeing what people are showing you that they want and and pushing into that, and then and then within that finding ways to to do my thing.

SPEAKER_02 14:41

That's cool as shit. How did you how did you get into this in the first place?

SPEAKER_01 14:45

I just bro, like every time everything I was at where there was a DJ, I was just like, oh, like I want to be the DJ. I want to be the one that gets to decide the songs, because why are you playing why are you playing this amazing song right now when everybody's eating dinner and nobody can enjoy it? Yeah, right. You know what I'm saying? Or or or why why are we listening to the same, like I don't know, at that time it must have been like I was young, I was like probably in high school, and I remember going to some weddings with my parents and shit, and like old people, and it must have been like celebrate by cooling the gang or something. Yeah, right. You know what I'm saying? That must have been like the song that like it was always played, and I was just like, what? Like all the music, and that's what that's the that's the only one with so much good music, like why is it that? You know what I mean? Um I just wanted to. I just wanted to I just wanted to express myself with the with the music and bring people together, really. You know what I mean? Yeah, dude.

SPEAKER_02 15:43

So you're you're you're really like it's your job to set the vibe.

SPEAKER_01 15:47

Like, if if you're off, I I feel like you're probably oh if I'm off it's gonna be, yeah, no, it's not gonna be great for it. Right? But when you're on, right? Yeah, yeah. So the point is that yeah, the goal is to be on. So like it's it it becomes a stress relief though, honestly. Like DJing?

SPEAKER_02 16:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 16:03

Oh man, like I I can't think about it. It's it's one of the few things that I mean you probably had this with with your creative work. You know, when you get into it, you can't really think about other things. You know what I'm saying? I mean, you in a way you can, but like your focus is, you know, if you're locked in, like you you get to you get to be in that space for hours, you know what I mean? Yeah. And there's not very many times where I I get to do something where like I can completely like block out like all the other noise, like, you know what I'm saying, politics, social issues, you know what I'm saying? Um the argument that I had with my wife last night, you know what I'm saying? Yeah. The you know issues with my kids' teachers or whatever whatever it could be.

SPEAKER_02 16:46

Yeah, man, and so so you have a voice and you have one that like people listen to, right? So can you talk to me a little bit about like the importance of actually using it?

SPEAKER_01 16:56

It's important to use it, uh uh uh obviously, um, but I kind of feel like I gotta pick spots.

SPEAKER_02 17:05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 17:05

Like um, I can't just say the shit that I want to say non-stop all the time. I feel like what especially what I've noticed is is people you you come to expect it from certain sources, and then it becomes you know noise. Yeah, it just it's just there. And you just oh of course, of course. And I'm noticing that everybody is blocking people that have different views.

SPEAKER_02 17:35

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 17:36

You know what I'm saying? Which I I think at first probably makes sense. You know what I'm saying? But I feel like what's what's the end goal? If the end goal, if the end goal is to like figure out how to live in the planet together, then we we can't just block everything that doesn't agree with everything that I agree with. I'm guilty of that. I'm not saying I'm not. Yeah. It's hard. It is. It's stressful, bro. Like like trying to trying to talk to people that don't uh want to understand what you're saying. Especially or or if you don't, or or people that you that or it's difficult on my end, it's difficult to talk to people that I struggle to respect.

SPEAKER_02 18:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 18:21

You know what I'm saying? Like, I I don't want to just put this on everybody else. Like, sometimes I'm I'm in conversations with people and I'm like, yeah, like I don't even know if if I respect you. I don't even I don't think I like you. You know what I'm saying? So the but but I but I have to like kind of fight through that to be to be like, no, like this person has a experience that they've been through that I don't just like I feel like they don't understand mine, they probably feel like I don't understand theirs. And and somebody has to try to understand. Somebody's gotta move a little. Yeah. But but yeah, so but if I if I'm if I'm speaking up on racial issues or social issues, you know, saying non-stop all the time, like one, like I don't I I personally don't know that I feel like I have authority to to do that um entirely. What do you think? You know what I'm saying? Like authority, like I like like expertise. Not authority, expertise, I guess, is a better word. You know what I'm saying? I don't I don't want to present as though you know, saying, like you have all the numbers and all of this shit. I have, you know what I'm saying, I have research and data to to back up like these things. Some of the shit, like, I'm just like, nah, like this is how this is what happened to me in my life.

SPEAKER_02 19:37

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 19:37

And and and it's real, you know what I'm saying? Yeah. Um, but also I wanna I want to do it in a thoughtful way too. Like I want I want it to be thought provoking when I when I say something. Like I don't want, I don't want to just blah and like like like like it with no path or or way to improve, right? Like if I'm calling out racists, if I'm calling out racists, then then then what's what's the end goal two? Do I want do I want the racists to just like you know uh evaporate and die? Or do I want them or do you want them to like to think and try to grow and grow and then like and then then maybe like influence like another person that like I'm never gonna talk to that they're gonna talk to you know you know what I'm saying?

SPEAKER_02 20:29

Yeah, man.

SPEAKER_01 20:30

So how do you I mean not that there's even any racist out here, they're non-existent. I was just coming up with the fake problem.

SPEAKER_04 20:37

Yeah, exactly, exactly.

SPEAKER_02 20:42

Well, man, how do you handle like the the trolls and the haters and the bullshit of it all?

SPEAKER_01 20:48

Yeah, I've come accustomed to haters. I I don't even know haters, trolls, bullshit. Um I can only do what I can do. You know what I'm saying? I can't, I can't without conversations and and actual, you know what I'm saying? Like I I'm not so I I I don't I don't engage in like arguments in comment sections, you know what I'm saying? I'm not I'm not that you can't. Well you can.

SPEAKER_02 21:14

Well, yeah, yeah, you can, but you can't do it in any like way that's gonna like move the needle.

SPEAKER_01 21:19

No it doesn't yeah, I I I have I have had I have tried to have conversations with with people though, you know what I'm saying? I that and that's that that part is the work, and that's like it's like an all-day thing.

SPEAKER_02 21:32

Yeah, and it's gonna be uncomfortable.

SPEAKER_01 21:34

It's uncomfortable and and it never I I have never come I haven't I've not come away from a conversation like that feeling like something was resolved, you know what I'm saying? Or or that there was a a clear path to a better way, yeah, or or even any kind of understanding, right?

SPEAKER_02 21:53

Oh, I feel like everybody now is so set in what they believe and and and with the Instagram of it all, like they're just being fed the same shit that just like reinforces yeah, yeah, 100%.

SPEAKER_01 22:08

And even if I even if it's something I agree with, I still see it. You know what I mean? I'm like, yeah, I'm like I agree with this, but like so but like what now what yeah, yeah, bro. I it's it's wild, and I'm sick of Instagram, anyways. Instagram is like I have a love-hate relationship with it. I like it, I like um being able to express myself freely, right? Like I can say something, I can you know create content, video, photo, music, record me talking some shit to the camera, put it out there, let people know how I feel, what I think. Um but then at the same time, everybody can do that.

SPEAKER_02 22:51

Right. Well, and and and for me. Like I think the reason why I have such a love-hate relationship with Instagram is that like I feel like for so long, like we worked so hard to like build an audience and uh build a brand and everything. And I feel like the the um the power that Instagram has where they're just like we're actually not gonna show this to anybody.

SPEAKER_01 23:14

Yeah, that shit is crazy.

SPEAKER_02 23:15

Like I don't see hardly anybody that I want to see.

SPEAKER_01 23:18

No, no, I have to search the name of the person's content that I want to see.

SPEAKER_02 23:24

Yeah, and like, dude, I forget. I forget about people, I forget about stuff, and then one day it'll just randomly come back and I'm like, oh my god, what did I miss?

SPEAKER_01 23:32

Yeah, yeah. Or or or your your friends, your actual friends, yeah, will will post something and you won't see it, and then you'll be talking to them and they'll talk to you like like they think you saw it.

SPEAKER_04 23:44

It's a little presumptive.

SPEAKER_01 23:49

And I'm like, nah, dude, I yeah, it's it's wild. It's wild. And and it's also this whole like Instagram is this free platform, self-expression, whatever. It's like you said, Instagram is now deciding what people see. Instagram is also deciding um how to how to like it's it's helping businesses sell things now, you know what I'm saying? Yeah, like that part. Like I'm I'm I'm looking at like, oh, my friend was working out. Oh, look at their kids. Oh, I should buy. I haven't bought anything from Billionaire Boys Club in a long time. What? What is this? Uh scroll, oh shit, some new shoes dropped. I should like yeah, you know, it's like a constant. Or or it's or I'm getting in my feed, I'm getting a whole bunch of suggestions. Of just like it's just like, it's just like, I'm like, do I follow, do I even follow this? No, this is just a suggestion. Dude, I'm this is another suggestion.

SPEAKER_02 24:45

On our bad idea social club account, like that's all our feed is, is just like really look at all this other stuff. I'm like, well, where's everybody else that I already said yes to?

SPEAKER_01 24:56

Yeah, man.

SPEAKER_02 24:57

It's infuriating a little bit.

SPEAKER_01 24:58

Are you thinking that you uh we gotta get back to like you know, physical, tactile uh communication style for you know I'm saying for for whatever it is, you know what I mean? Like it seems like it's gotta go back to that.

SPEAKER_02 25:14

Well, and I and I kind of feel like we're already starting to move that way because it's like I find that sending an email, like even so let's just go back a little bit, right? Okay, I'm I'm finding sending an email is far more productive than posting something on Instagram.

SPEAKER_01 25:31

Oh, for real?

SPEAKER_02 25:32

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 25:34

Those people are engaged. Okay, okay.

SPEAKER_02 25:36

So, like, what's one more step back from that, right? It's like talking to somebody face to face.

SPEAKER_01 25:43

Yeah, you know? Okay, no, that's good. Email. Do you like sending these emails? Is that fun? No, it's necessary that it sucks.

SPEAKER_03 25:55

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 25:56

And it's like, and this is okay, here's the here's the designer in me. It's like I've never seen an email where I'm like, that's a good-looking email. Ever. And it breaks me a little bit to send that shit out. Oh man. What keeps you into uh into music? Because music is kind of the backbone of what you do.

SPEAKER_01 26:20

Yeah, um, I mean, it it feeds me, you know what I'm saying? Yeah. Soul, spirit, whatever. Um, that that that part. But also, I do feel like it's one of those things that um it's it's very instinctive um in in the way that it gets responses from people. And I I love to see yeah to see. But it's immediate, right? Yeah, you know right away. You know what I'm saying? So I don't have to we don't have to bullshit.

SPEAKER_04 26:53

I love that.

SPEAKER_01 26:55

You know what I'm saying? Like there's I get in so many conversations where people are, you know, you know how people are. People just talk and they just talk and they just talk, and you're like, what are you trying to say? You know what I'm saying? What do you what do you really mean? Like, what are you really gonna do? You know what I mean? Like, like all those things. Yeah. And I I'm really starting to try to I'm trying to simplify, you know, saying my my life or like my my thoughts as well. And and I'm really at a place where I'm just like, you know what? Like, fuck what people say, it only matters what they do. So I love that so and so when it comes to DJing, I get that. You know what I'm saying? Like, like if if if the people move, then it's then it's good. You know what I mean? I don't have to just make it simple.

SPEAKER_02 27:46

Well, what what when did you realize that that music was more to you than just sounds in your ears?

SPEAKER_01 27:53

I think that it was in high school, um, when I was like I had I had this, you know, this this relationship, you know, in high school. I thought I was in love and all this, and had this relationship go bad, and music was like the only thing that I can really like point to that I I was consistently using as a as a way to kind of process and you know saying feel stuff. You know what I'm saying? It's just like sad. I'm listening to sad songs, you know what I'm saying? Like over and over. I don't know. I think I listened to when I was I think I listened to Bohemian Rhapsody like you know, I'd listen to it like three times in a row before I went to bed. You know what I'm saying? God, I love that though.

SPEAKER_04 28:35

I love that though.

SPEAKER_01 28:37

And then and then and then and then, you know, or or you know, that this is this is this is I'm 46, so this is like 90s, right? So there's a lot of like underground, you know, underground hip-hop type shit that I was into as well. And um Farside Lab cabin California, there's a song called She Said, and it just like a lot, there was a lot of lot of ways that I would be tapping into my emotions, you know what I'm saying, through through music in around that time. And I think that's when I was realizing that that helped me realize it like this shit is like actually really important to me. It's powerful, yeah, yeah. And I didn't I didn't I don't think I knew I I can't say I was cognizant of it at that time, but now that you're asking me now, and I'm thinking through, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 29:23

Yeah. What was growing up like for you? What kind of kid were you?

SPEAKER_01 29:29

Uh let's see. I I played sports. Yeah? Yeah, so uh a lot of sports. I was I was I was pretty good in my neighborhood. I grew up right over here. Yeah, Calvin. Uh Calvin Noble.

SPEAKER_02 29:46

Yeah, just right over there. Love that.

SPEAKER_01 29:48

Yeah. Uh, you know, I peaked in middle school winning the uh Gusmacker trophies. Uh you don't know about Gusmacker? No. Gusmacker did like 300 basketball.

SPEAKER_03 30:01

Uh-oh. You're you're talking to a skinny white nigga with a mullet. You understand? Are you skinny? The mullet was a freaking thing.

SPEAKER_01 30:15

Oh shit.

SPEAKER_03 30:16

I've made up for it since.

SPEAKER_01 30:17

Yeah. Um no, I was always social. I was always social. I was always like, you know what I'm saying? I was always trying to um I was always trying to get the girls to laugh. Um, I think in in fourth and fifth grade, I I tried to have like I tried to date like every girl in the class at some point during those years. It was I was I was wild.

SPEAKER_04 30:43

He was just trying. He was just trying.

SPEAKER_01 30:45

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And um, let's see, the so there's that, there's uh I definitely was I definitely I definitely was was I got into a space where um you know what I'm saying, I was like like like like like black nerd sort of vibes, you know what I'm saying, because I was you know like you remember like AP advanced placement classes and honors classes, I was in those um but the schools were you know I'm saying the schools were like fifty to sixty percent black other black kids were like you know, we'd we'd be vibing in in some of the you know art gym classes, but then like math, science, history, like I'm in a class with like you know, majority white kids, you know what I'm saying?

SPEAKER_02 31:31

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 31:31

And so then the black kids are like looking at me like Where you going? Like what's yeah, like what what's what what's going on? Um so there was there was that. Um I was actually my my my family was very religious uh growing up, so I was heavily involved in church life. Um my granddad was a pastor. Uh and then that just like carried down into like my mom, you know what I'm saying, is is a very uh her faith is is very important to her. Um so we we just grew up in church all the time. So I constantly had a lot of like um my my relationship to to church and and faith has changed a lot since that time. But I would say from you know birth through high school, like that was a a big part of my life. After high school, you know, I started to like kind of look around and be like, yeah, like is this really how you know you that that's that's that's yeah. Yeah, I feel like I feel like you want to get into it, but it got more complex. I don't know if it I don't because I don't I that shit I mean I don't have all the answers.

SPEAKER_04 32:50

Nobody does, nobody does.

SPEAKER_01 32:52

I I I no, yeah, for sure, but like I'm also um I I think there's some good that came out of that time. Yeah you know what I'm saying? And I think that there are some you know what I'm saying? I guess I I guess it's like everything. Like I I know some Christians that that I think are great people that um that think are definitely like have are making positive impact in the world. Yeah. And then I think there's other people that are Christians that are that are using it as a weapon. Not that are not, you know what I'm saying, doing the opposite. Yeah. You know what I'm saying? So um yeah, there was a I I that's a that that's a that's a that's a that's a struggle for me. Um in terms of just like figuring out my place if I have a place um when it comes to that that faith and and and belief and God and Jesus and so you kinda waver a little bit. You're like, I don't really know and uh Yeah, in some ways I do waver, yeah, yeah. There's um Yeah, I didn't expect to talk about this shit. But yeah, I I uh Yeah, I I i I I want to um I w I I want to have uh a stronger belief than than I do have.

SPEAKER_02 34:26

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 34:27

And I don't why I don't I don't know why I want to, but I think I want to. Um but there's but but but then I s there's there's so many just fucked up things that I see people doing. Yeah. Or or or things that you know the the Christians say this and then they do this or the Bible or even fuck what whatever. The Bible says Jesus says uh love the poor.

SPEAKER_04 35:06

Right. I don't know.

SPEAKER_01 35:07

I'm just saying, like, you know what I mean? And and so it's just it yeah, that that I definitely think I I wrestle mentally with with that stuff.

SPEAKER_02 35:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 35:19

Because I have great friends that don't believe in God at all.

SPEAKER_02 35:21

Yeah, I mean I don't I don't have religion in my life.

SPEAKER_01 35:23

You know what I'm saying? And and these people are are have been great great friends, great support, um have very real conversations, you know what I'm saying? Like you know what I'm saying? Uh regard so I I guess like across the board, I'm just kind of like, and maybe that's just like something that uh I'm just always gonna kind of like I don't I don't know.

SPEAKER_02 35:49

And I think it's okay not to know, right? Like it's it's uh um I obviously it feels good to have uh uh a a sense of place, right? But it's um I'll be honest.

SPEAKER_01 36:02

Well I feel like the maybe I feel like this I feel like this, you know what I'm saying, politically too. Yeah, you know what I'm saying? I feel like I feel like I don't I don't feel like I fit in, you know, entirely into like into a certain bucket into into uh yeah, yeah. I mean I obviously I I know I don't fit into I know I don't I don't I know I don't fit into a Republican bucket, you know what I'm saying? But when I'm you know saying like um I I feel like why why do we only have these two choices?

SPEAKER_02 36:31

Right. Um the human like like being human is is far more complicated.

SPEAKER_01 36:37

Yeah, there's there's so many layers of shit, you know what I mean? And it's like what there's gotta be something, there's gotta be another way. Yeah, feels like there's there's this other way that that that we haven't you know given a name to or collectively figured out like how to have like this a third or fourth party that represents more thoughtful type shit. Yeah, I feel I but I also feel like it's just hard to be thoughtful about everything. Like it'd be far easier to just be like, nah, it's like this.

SPEAKER_02 37:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 37:11

And it's and I'm like this. And since I'm like this, this is what I think and believe because I am this. You know what I mean? As opposed to being like, no, like there's there's all these other, there's there's hundreds of ways to approach this problem. Like, what's the best way in our situation, you know, here in in this region or in Grand Rapids, what's the best way to approach this particular problem? Taking into account the uniqueness of uh like the people that are you know what I'm saying? Like that's that's a lot of work.

SPEAKER_02 37:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 37:45

But I do think that that's probably the best way. But that's like, who has time for that shit?

SPEAKER_02 37:49

I mean, really. No, you you don't have time, yeah. Well, what about what about your place in the in the Grand Rapids West Michigan creative scene?

SPEAKER_01 37:58

I don't know. I I used to feel like um I I used to I've I felt multiple ways. Sometimes I don't really like uh creatives. You know what I'm saying? Yeah. I think part of it is is is like the the no the no barrier to entry, uh self-proclaimed uh creative. Don't you do you have to be like good? Right. No, I'm serious. Right, no, I know what's the what's the how do and then now you're mad at me because I didn't go to like your event? Bro, like where were you? Like you you ten years ago, where were you? You know what I'm saying? Like when you know saying like like I have I have things to do, right? Like I'm DJing all the time, right?

SPEAKER_02 38:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 38:57

Like I can't, I how I can't go. I can't. I'm I'm DJing. You know what I'm saying? Like, like support, or like like this, like you should support me because I'm creating this thing. Well, what if I don't even like it? Like if we were like in New York or something, like either your shit is good or it's not good. Maybe that's that's how I imagine it to be. Like in a in a in a market where there's like more creatives, you know what I'm saying? Also, I feel like I feel like creatives, I feel like entrepreneurs, creatives, maybe this is just people, like, are constantly like trying to angle for like this thing to get out of you. Like this this way that you can, you know what I'm saying? Like, I feel like the conversations um are having this like this aspect of how are you going to how how is this conversation going to help me move forward? I want you to be successful as a creative as long as like I'm attached to your success and and your success then helps my success.

SPEAKER_02 40:04

Yeah. Give me some of it.

SPEAKER_01 40:05

You know what I'm saying? I spent time I'm I'm I might be jaded, you know what I'm saying? Because I spent time, I spent a lot of time uh working with entrepreneurs the last four years. I was um, I don't know if you know, I was uh I was running social media uh for Start Garden.

SPEAKER_02 40:21

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 40:22

Um so I was in a lot of spaces. And there's some great entrepreneurs in in Grand Rapids, and then there's some that are not great.

SPEAKER_02 40:31

Dog shit, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 40:32

You know what I'm saying? And and um I was you see a lot of a lot of this sort of conversations that are just like angling for you know how to how how they how how one can like move up and acquire what they need, you know what I'm saying? Like these conversations are not based on yeah, it's not real. I mean, I guess it's real because they just want to figure out how to make money. You know what I'm saying? Yeah, you know what I'm saying? So I guess I guess it's real in a way, you know what I'm saying? Like they're not talking to you, they're not talking to me. You know what I'm saying?

SPEAKER_02 41:04

If they're talking I guess I guess it's not real in a way that I would appreciate.

SPEAKER_01 41:08

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 41:08

Does that make sense?

SPEAKER_01 41:09

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Or or or they're not they're not they're not real in a way that like their intentions are not. They're not they're not they're not expressing their true intentions in the conversation, right?

SPEAKER_02 41:22

Yeah, fuck I hate that.

SPEAKER_01 41:24

So I'm so I so so now I'm checking myself. I'm trying to make sure that like I'm doing that. You know what I'm saying? I I don't wanna That's huge. I don't wanna be, I don't wanna I don't wanna contribute to to that sort of energy. You know, it's like it's like if I can recognize if I can recognize if if I'm intelligent enough to recognize a problem that frustrates me from someone else, but I can't see it in myself, that's that's that'd be sad. I I I I can't control the other person, but I can't control what I do.

SPEAKER_02 41:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 41:58

You know what I mean? I can't control what I say and what I don't say, and I'm just trying to I'm just trying to like. Yeah, man. I'm just trying to get better.

SPEAKER_02 42:10

Dude, I love that. This episode is supported by Creative Mornings Grand Rapids, our local chapter in the world's largest face-to-face creative community. Creative Mornings believes everyone is creative and everyone is welcome. Their monthly lecture series is free and spans over 240 cities across 69 countries. Visit Creative Mornings.com to see what's going on with your local chapter. And by Review, West Michigan's Arts and Entertainment Guide. Find out what's going on in the world of local music, art, dining, events, and more with print magazines at over 500 locations, a weekly newsletter, and online stories at ReviewwM.com. And by Merchants and Makers, a collective of local artists, makers, and small businesses, Merchants and Makers puts on markets across West Michigan connecting people with real artists and makers at events that include food trucks, live music, and local shopping. Visit merchantsandmakers.com for information on upcoming events and how to get involved. Let's hop. When you're gone, what do you hope people say about you? What?

unknown 43:13

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 43:13

Oh, I should have warned of the hard terms.

SPEAKER_01 43:18

When I'm dead, uh I mean, I want my f I want I want my my family um uh look at your face just now. Uh shit. I mean, I want my kids to like you know be proud of uh what the the the the things that they learned uh from me. Um I I just want them to feel like able to pursue, you know what I'm saying, have have confidence to like pursue things that they're passionate about and um and and and be honest with themselves and and honest with how they uh how they interact with with with people in the world, you know what I'm saying? I just I don't I don't know what that looks like. I just I want them to be able to say like you know my dad you know made positive contributions to like the way I am now. But I want them to like I just want them to feel good about the time that that that we spent, and I want them to know that you know um doing shit for them.

SPEAKER_02 44:33

Finish the thought.

SPEAKER_01 44:35

Creativity requires uh confidence, courage, you know um some craziness.

SPEAKER_02 44:47

Some fuckery Yeah. Uh what what would you like?

SPEAKER_01 44:54

What are people gonna say about you when you die? Before you die, what are you gonna eat? Um, my last meal, Sanchez. Yes. I'm just at Sanchez, just like smashing everything. You're just running through the man. It's like a three-hour, it's like a you know, three hour dinner.

SPEAKER_02 45:09

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 45:10

Love that. Like, all right, I'm ready to go. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 45:14

Uh, what's the best or the worst advice you've ever received?

SPEAKER_01 45:19

Oh, I got this, man. The best advice that I got. I was so I was I was 18. Um, there was this there was this bass player. This is at my church. There's this bass player at my church. I just started to to rap and uh within like a year and a half or around this time, and this bass player is like old OG bass player, like killing it. Like I would I would just like listen to him on the bass. Like there's a whole choir singing, there's drummers, there's organs, keyboards, you know what I'm saying, amazing voices, and I'm just like watching the bass. I'm like, what's he gonna do next? Was it oh my god, this is so good. God, I love that. So I would I would like just like try to like talk to him after church, you know what I'm saying? Um, and he would he told me that if I was to if I was gonna go into music, that if I'm not able to face rejection consistently, that I shouldn't do it.

SPEAKER_02 46:19

Yeah, it's gonna break you.

SPEAKER_01 46:20

He said like you're going to get rejected you know twenty times for every one moment of approval.

SPEAKER_02 46:29

How are you handling that? How do you handle rejection?

SPEAKER_01 46:31

So I expected that. So then I was fine. Well, because I feel like I've I I I I just keep doing what I want to do. You know what I'm saying? And rejection now doesn't look like somebody like saying, like, oh, your shit sucks. It looks like I had this response that the people were going to have to this creative project that I did, or I had this idea that when I when I put this out here in the world, they're gonna respond like this, and then they don't. But I just I view it as like something I'm learning from about myself, you know what I'm saying? And it's like uh almost like a test, like like like can I can I, you know, after I put this out, can I be strong enough to like keep going with a thing, and can I be aware enough to like learn from what may have failed or or didn't meet my expectations, you know what I'm saying? Then I then I then I go to like damn, like I just gotta get better.

SPEAKER_04 47:29

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 47:31

That's so healthy. Do you understand? That's so healthy.

SPEAKER_02 47:34

I don't know. I I yeah, I guess. What's your walk-up song?

SPEAKER_01 47:42

Oh shit. Uh a walk-up song, man. I damn, I don't know. I should have this. I should have this ready. I'm always doing everybody else's walk-up song. Like, like literally. Literally, yeah, yeah. I do a lot of corporate events now. Really? Yeah, so that's like that's all they want. They don't, I mean, that's they're like, can you do you have a good voice? Yes. Check that box off. Can you play my walk-up song? Yes, I can. Can you start it at 18 seconds? I don't know. I don't know, Tom.

SPEAKER_04 48:15

You're asking a lot again.

SPEAKER_01 48:18

Uh, but yeah, yeah. So um my walk-up song, man, it changes all the time. It's gonna change, it changes a lot. Right now, I think it's gonna be um it's gonna be every can I go everybody wants to rule the world. Yeah! Hell yeah, you can. We'll go with that. We'll go with that. It's either that or it's something by outcast. And and there's too much outcast in my head right now to to to pinpoint to pinpoint one of those things.

SPEAKER_03 48:45

But the vibe, I got I know the vibe.

SPEAKER_01 48:46

I got the vibe. That's awesome.

SPEAKER_02 48:48

I love that. Um, what uh what makes you feel most like yourself?

SPEAKER_01 48:53

Yo, man, like I everything when I have a day that I'm like engaging in like all the spaces in my life that like that I like to to do. You know what I'm saying?

SPEAKER_02 49:06

Yeah, the stuff that matters.

SPEAKER_01 49:07

Yeah, but but I mean, that's a lot. I'm saying, like, so like I I I really I really am I'm really am feeling like I get to like be most like myself.

SPEAKER_02 49:20

Well, that's kind of the life you you you because I for yourself.

SPEAKER_01 49:23

But yeah, but I don't have a boss that I report to. You know what I'm saying?

SPEAKER_02 49:27

Yeah, so so Man, I I I am not built to have a boss. It I I believe you did it for years, didn't work.

SPEAKER_01 49:37

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 49:38

I don't know how I never got fired.

SPEAKER_01 49:40

You never got fired?

SPEAKER_02 49:41

No, no.

SPEAKER_01 49:42

Uh so they knew they needed you. Yeah, so they put up with us. So good.

SPEAKER_04 49:46

I'm so good.

SPEAKER_01 49:51

I'm serious, bro. Like that, like these I think that the the the types of people that become bosses or or leaders like in the corporate space, like they also don't have like the creative side and like the ideas and the imagination. So like that's why like they're always going to need like like creatives are always gonna be needed in those spaces, you know what I'm saying? Because you I mean, you know, hence the name. But like your your ideas are are what the that's the value. That's something I learned. I I learned that like I was like, yo, like there was I so many times it would happen to me so many times, and then I was like, fuck, I I gotta stop talking about ideas around certain people.

SPEAKER_02 50:39

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 50:39

You know what I'm saying? Because like because they're hungry and they want and and they might have the time that night to do it, and it's not gonna be the same that you did, but it but now it's done. So like you you can't piggyback off of it now, like, because it's somebody else put it on. Does that make sense? Yes, yes. Yeah, you probably had this happen too, or you have ideas in your head that you haven't done yet.

SPEAKER_02 51:07

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 51:07

And then now somebody else does it. Dude.

SPEAKER_03 51:10

That happens what, like I I like how you look down like that.

SPEAKER_02 51:18

I that's that was it's just defeat. You know, it's not moving my ass fast enough. Uh, and and I don't know, maybe it's because the idea wasn't like uh it wasn't fully cooked yet.

SPEAKER_01 51:30

You know what I mean?

SPEAKER_02 51:31

Yeah, and my dumb ass talked about it, and so you know.

SPEAKER_01 51:35

Yeah. But it's exciting to talk about. It is, and sometimes you need to talk about it. Because as you talk about it, it helps you like process like because you cause because when you when when I talk about an idea and I see like your eyes and I see like how you react to it, like it it makes me think of it, think of the idea in a different way. Like, like you might see an angle to whatever the idea is that I didn't see, and now I'm like rethinking it and stuff like that. So like I guess like you gotta just like talk about it with people that you someone you trust. Yeah, you know, I think that's the move. Yeah, but don't talk about it with like these business sharks.

SPEAKER_02 52:19

Do you do you have any regrets?

SPEAKER_01 52:22

Yeah, I mean I I I have regrets. I mean I I I I wish I would have spent more time with uh my grandparents um and and tried to to learn from them more, you know what I'm saying? Um I think I I feel like there was just such a big difference in um there was no internet and and our lifestyles were like so so different, you know what I'm saying? Like my granddad was a pastor, like I'm not you know what I'm saying, and and and and and not like cause because no, because I cause I because I see right now, I feel like people can talk to their grandparents about more like shared things. Because whether grandparents are good at internet or not, good at sound old as fuck. I don't even know. But you know what I'm saying? Like, like, like we all there's like more collective um exposure to things now, yeah. Right? Like your you know, your grandparents also know about shit that's happening, you know, whereas like in the 80s and 90s, it was like, no, that's like old people do that shit over here, up here, yeah, and and young people do this shit right here and and the world shall not mix. You know what I'm saying? Yeah, they even dress different, bro. Like, you remember like you remember like you know what I'm saying? You never had teachers that like actually had the same shoes as you, you know what I'm saying? Like teachers were wearing like they were tucking in their shit, like they were wearing like weird dress shoes and shit. You know what I'm saying? Yeah now it's like now like the kids and the teachers are like trying to get the Jordans. Yeah, like they're all trying to get the job.

SPEAKER_02 54:10

You know, the teacher's the coolest one in the room. Yeah, that was not the case, man. No, no, not at all.

SPEAKER_01 54:15

Not at all. So I don't know. So I I I I do wish I would have um I wish that that that's a that's a regret. Um I think that another regret I I think I have is is is sometimes um not not pivoting out of um bad situations, you know what I'm saying, sooner.

SPEAKER_02 54:39

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 54:39

You know what I'm saying?

SPEAKER_02 54:40

It's hard to know a lot of times though, like when you're in that situation. Or or were you aware?

SPEAKER_01 54:45

Uh I felt like I felt uh I was I was aware, but I also I think I I think I think I so I think maybe this is a different regret. Regret to be like not being stubborn. Because I think I was I was being stubborn, you know what I'm saying? I was like, no, like I'm in this, I don't, I don't quit. You know what I'm saying? Like I find a way to make it work, and you know what I'm saying? Yeah. And and and and this is just a hard time right now, but it's gonna be better.

SPEAKER_02 55:15

That's pride, right?

SPEAKER_01 55:16

Yeah, I think so. I think so, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 55:19

Yeah, and it's uh turns out it's it's way healthier to just cut your fucking losses, right? And and take care of yourself.

SPEAKER_01 55:27

Yeah. Um and maybe just maybe just yeah, being able to admit that being able to admit sooner that that I don't know what to do, yeah or I don't know the best way forward. I just know that this isn't working. This ain't it and and yeah. Is that specific enough?

unknown 55:47

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 55:50

Um all right, man. Last question.

SPEAKER_01 55:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 55:53

Are you okay?

SPEAKER_01 55:55

Yes, I'm okay. For real? Yeah. Yeah, thank you. Uh I'm okay. Good. Yeah, yeah. I mean, I I'm okay. I'm emotional about like my kids, bro. Like, that's what got me when you asked me that question about the kids, man. That that just they they still like me, you know what I'm saying? And um, I didn't have a good relationship with my dad, so um, or my biological dad, and then my stepdad was was was very solid. Um, but then when I went through my divorce in 2007, they were going through their divorce too, and the way that my stepdad handled the divorce was like, you know, uh pretty pretty shitty to me um in terms of just like not saying anything. He just didn't just didn't did like left all the explanation of what was happening to my mom. And I I was old enough to handle it, but like, you know, my my sister, uh that it it really it really wasn't great for her. And I just think it's like a shitty thing to do, you know what I'm saying? Like to leave it all on my mom to to explain what's happening and tell us and that weight that she's gonna be able to do. Yeah, yeah. And yeah. So um I say all that to say that like you know, I I feel like I I want to be um I wanna I wanna be here for my for my kids, you know what I'm saying, in the best way uh possible. You know what I'm saying? And I want to support them regardless of like what path, you know what I'm saying, they they choose, you know what I'm saying? Right, yeah. Like they might not be a creative entrepreneur. You know what I'm saying? Like, they might they might they might have a boss. They might, you know, like they might go in a in a way that like I wouldn't have gone. Um, but I I just want whatever way they go, I want it to be like what they really want. I want it to be them. I want them to do them, and I want to support them doing them, you know what I'm saying? That's huge, man. I love that as much as possible. That's that's that's well, you know, I I just want to do what I can, you know, and I I think that's something I can do.

SPEAKER_02 58:16

I love that. Your sweetheart.

SPEAKER_01 58:20

I love that. Oh shit.

SPEAKER_02 58:24

All right, dude. Before we get out of here, uh, where where can people find you?

SPEAKER_01 58:28

Oh, uh on on everyone's favorite platform, Instagram. Yeah, uh Instagram it is a b.everywhere. And then online it's everythingab.com.

SPEAKER_02 58:42

Thank you.

SPEAKER_01 58:43

No, thank you, man. This is this has been fun. I love I love just being able to look at look at this uh wrestling action figure collection over here. Dude, it's um my pride and joy. You even got you got the Bret Hart with the leather jacket? Yeah. I'm not saying so. Yeah. So thank you for having me, man. This is great. I appreciate you.

SPEAKER_02 59:06

Yeah, dude. Thank you so much.

SPEAKER_01 59:08

This is uh this has been yeah, more um therapeutic than I expected.

unknown 59:12

Well, good. Good.

SPEAKER_01 59:14

All right, man, let's get out of here. All right, peace.

SPEAKER_02 59:24

Bad Idea Social Club is an independent podcast made possible by merch sales, reviews, and listener support. And is created and hosted by me, graphic designer Aaron McCall, and co-hosted by photographer Joe Madison. Music is noises by Mike Maids in the branches. Get Bad Idea Social Club wherever you get your podcast.