Ryan Wasson: Another Round

Ahead of Season 7 on April 14, Aaron McCall and Joe Matteson sit down to show off the studio space, talk through what’s changing, and shake the rust off a bit. They get into the shift to video, what it’s doing to the energy of the show, how this next chapter already feels different, and why they’re both excited and a little nervous about it. It’s loose, it’s honest, and it’s a quick look at where things are headed and what it took to get here.

Keep up with Ryan Wasson:
IG: @feedtheryno

——
This episode is supported by:
Creative Mornings Grand Rapids
Merchants & Makers
Revue
——
Writer/Producer/Editor/Host:
Aaron McCall
aaronmccall.net
IG: @aaron_mccall
——
Co-Host/Sidekick/Photographer:
Joe Matteson
themattesons.co
IG: @joe_dustin
——
Music:
"Noises" by Mike Mains & The Branches
——
Support the Podcast:
Buy Merch
——
Follow Bad Idea Social Club:
badideasocialclub.com
IG: @badideasocialclub

Transcript

SPEAKER_04 0:53

And I was actually out fly fishing with a couple friends, and I brought a couple bottles, and we had a couple bottles left in my first batch. I'm like, but oh don't worry, I got a new batch. We cracked them open and I could just see the like the smiles kind of go more level face.

SPEAKER_01 1:04

Oh fuck, we're gonna have to drink this.

unknown 1:13

I can't seem to make them go away.

SPEAKER_02 1:29

What is this? Oh, you don't even have your fucking headphones on. Are you good? All right, everybody, welcome back to Bad Ideas Social Club. My name is Aaron McCall. And I'm Joe Madison. Uh this time I got to sit down with Ryan Watson. He's the head brewer over at uh Coopersville Brewing Company. The dude lives deep in the craft beer world. Um he's he's been brewing for years. He's obsessive about process and flavor and experience. Uh and he's the kind of guy who can nerd out about beer for hours if you just let him go. Yeah. Um but you gotta give him some guardrails. He's a very sweet rhino.

SPEAKER_00 2:21

I was trying to think of how to make a reference to the ace ventura scene when he's coming out of the rhino suit. I was like, nah, I I'm a I'ma skip it. Really? Because you didn't. Yeah, I know. Well, I mean, I wasn't gonna go as like visual as I wanted to.

SPEAKER_02 2:37

We'll work something up for socials. Nice. You know, he's somebody who's spent a lot of time figuring out who he is, both both as a brewer and as a person. So yeah, you know, we we we talked about beer and brewing, but uh we also talked a lot about endurance and reinvention and what it takes to really uh get in tune and and uh get to know yourself.

SPEAKER_00 3:06

So years and years ago, I took a trip to Florida with my brother Tony and Erica. It was kind of like a spur-of-the-moment thing, and I brought the camera with me. It was like right at the beginning when I started doing video, like super early. Um, anyway, so we go on the trip, I gather like all this footage of us just kind of doing stuff, and I'm coming, I come home and I start editing this thing. And in every clip, I am so dismissive of my now wife, then girlfriend, like just the way I'm talking to her, it just was so unacceptably, unacceptably dismissive. Why were you being such a piece of shit? I don't know, dude. And like something I appreciate for that experience is like it like was a total wake-up call. It was just like, dude, you're taking this amazing individual for granted, and the way that you're you're acting is completely unacceptable. So I say that to say it is never too late to look at who you are or what you're doing or how you're presenting yourself, and to think if there's a way that is more true to who you want to be to make adjustments.

SPEAKER_02 4:11

Coming to that realization that it can't be like an easy thing to swallow.

SPEAKER_00 4:16

Bro, it sucked. I remember I used to edit really late at night and it was dark, and I was just like kind of like going through the footage, and I was like, I was emotional about it. I was like, what the who the fuck am I? And who do I want to be more importantly? And from that moment I was like, I will never hear myself speak to this person I love like that again. What about you? Is there can you think of a moment that you like stood and like looked yourself in the face or just have like a surge of self-awareness?

SPEAKER_02 4:51

Yeah. For a long time, like I thought it was cool to kind of like just be a day. And I don't know if it was I don't know what it was. I think I think I was just so like self-absorbed and like trying to be cool.

SPEAKER_00 5:11

Again, what's the opportunity we have is that we can always work on it. Alright, before we dive in, don't forget to follow wherever you're listening. Leave a five-star review, and don't forget to tell your friends.

SPEAKER_02 5:24

Also, this thing runs on merch sales and listener support and reviews. So go visit bad ideasocialclub.com and pick up a t-shirt or a mug or something. And uh yeah, here's my here's my conversation with the rhino. Fuck yeah, rhino the gyno. How'd you get into gynecology?

SPEAKER_04 5:47

It was always a side project for a long time.

SPEAKER_02 5:50

You figured why not make it a it was a hobby, it was hobby for a long time. Exactly.

SPEAKER_04 5:55

Was president of the uh amateur uh association in college.

SPEAKER_02 6:00

But no, man, uh uh brewery of the year.

SPEAKER_04 6:04

Uh what a welcome surprise. Holy smokes. I was uh uh was shocked. Um so actually that day uh was the day we had like really bad snowstorms and if Coopersville Brewing, where I where I work now, uh it's a little farm town between Grand Rapids and Muskegon off in 96, and it's known for just horrible wind. Like when we get a blizzard, like it gets twice as bad there. So we were all actually contemplating staying at the brewery and just going like to Dollar General and getting some sleeping bags or something. And we all just like, okay, no, we're just gonna we're gonna be adults and drive home. Like, I literally got out of the shower and Steph was just like walked in and was like just showed me because Ed was there and uh basically was like, Oh my gosh. Yeah, so yeah, I literally just got out of the shower, then I started getting calls from people, and I'm just like, um, can I call you back? I'm gonna need a minute. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 6:57

Dude, that's gotta be validating as hell.

SPEAKER_04 7:00

It's so much so, so much so. It's been a really busy summer, a lot of hard work trying to get the beer program, uh, just redialed in and lots of uh equipment things and onboarding new stuff and just new team, new things, and it just it just felt so good, man.

SPEAKER_02 7:17

Dude, I mean, especially in a region like West Michigan, where I mean Grand Rapids is beer city USA, and you're just you're you're right there, like to be recognized in West Michigan, it's fucking nuts.

SPEAKER_04 7:28

Oh, and just just to be at the party with the breweries that were named. Um, obviously, always been a huge City Built fan, just love what they're doing there. Just um just to be at the table with those people are just awesome, and all the other breweries that were on the list too, you know, odds, uh founders, uh, I think Bell's was on there. I can't remember who I'm missing.

SPEAKER_02 7:47

Yeah, there were some motherfuckers on the list.

SPEAKER_04 7:49

Oh, there were some giants. I'm like, us and founders, huh? I mean, we made a meme. It was the one where it's like all the cats eating food and it was like the possum, and it was like all the other breweries, and then we were like the possum. You know, like that's how it felt just being this little farm club brewery. Um just even be thought of was an honor, let alone winning it.

SPEAKER_02 8:09

So dude, so so is the pressure on now to level up? Are you gonna are you gonna take a minute and enjoy it? What's up?

SPEAKER_04 8:17

I think both. Um obviously, like it's it's cool to feel like you're part of something, but also it's like, all right, game on. Let's now that we have this attention, like we've got a window of opportunity, let's deal with it. So um, let's let's make the most of it, I guess is a better way of saying it.

SPEAKER_02 8:33

I love that. So what are we drinking today, man? I know you brought stuff.

SPEAKER_04 8:36

Oh, um, you ready for a beer? Yeah. All right. Uh you want hops or a lager? You you do a choice? All right, I'm drinking a car.

SPEAKER_02 8:43

Thank you.

SPEAKER_04 8:44

Yes. I brought two of each so we can uh collaboratively uh taste the beers together.

SPEAKER_02 8:49

I love that. Yeah, love that.

SPEAKER_04 8:51

So this is uh Chef Shifty. Um, it was born out of a conversation between Chef Kyle Murray and I, um, our chef at Coopersville Brewing, our One Eyed Pizza restaurant.

SPEAKER_02 9:01

Fun fact. I mean, I I don't know if anybody listening to this is has been with us since the beginning, but we had Kyle on the podcast very first season.

SPEAKER_04 9:08

I was actually thinking about that. Like some of the people like that in my world, like I'm like, oh my gosh, we have so many awesome like references to previous episodes. Yeah, love it. Yeah, so it was a conversation between Chef and I just about loving um, I'll just say it, Founders Reds Rye, but being older and uh cheers, man. Uh not wanting to drink 7% IPAs. Um, because I'd had a couple for my birthday, stuff and I were in town. Oh, that's fucking good. Thank you. Thank you, thank you. Freshly canned. Uh so yeah, we had a couple uh had a couple beers before meeting my parents for my birthday dinner. I'm like, it was two is a perfect number, but I just I wish I could make a crush, you know, I wish I had a crushable version of that.

SPEAKER_01 9:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 9:50

Anyway, Chef and I were sitting in the office talking about it, and it just became this conversation, and all of a sudden it was like, we should do this. So I had uh selfishly bought a bag of Amarillo hops on sale from uh Brian Tennis at Michigan Hop Alliance, and I'm like, uh, we're gonna make this happen. And it was about five and a half percent. Uh hoppy, it's a rye pale ale. Um obviously not trying to copy Red's rye, but just do our own little spin on it. Um, I very much like go in my own direction, but sometimes it's just fun to pay homage to a behemoth.

SPEAKER_02 10:20

So yeah, dude, for so many years, Red's rye was my favorite beer. Um, but you know, like you said, it's a it's a it's a motherfucker.

SPEAKER_04 10:28

Yeah. It'll take you right down, you know, and that's just the whole thing. And with a you know, with it not really being available much in packaging to have that for um for a beer, like like a pre-dinner beer. It's like, okay, yeah, two is two's two's perfect. I'll drink Sapporo at the sushi place. Like that's cool.

SPEAKER_02 10:46

Dude, so so I want to get into um how beer became your outlet in your medium and all of that, but of course. Um first I want the origin story. Like, what take me back before your head of beverage, take me back before the awards and all that. Like, what like what kind of kid were you?

SPEAKER_04 11:04

Um I was actually a really good kid. I was extremely shy. Um, I think uh I'm sure mom's listening to this, but yeah, I think she would attest I was a shy kid. Um, tried to be the best version of a kid. I think I was a pretty good kid, so didn't get in a lot of trouble, but um yeah, just enjoying uh things. I was big into the outdoors, loved fishing and hunting when I could and hockey and just normal kid things, like oh Star Wars, like you name it, all the nerd things. I was kind of a nerd in high school, but love that. Yeah, yeah, but I felt like I was a good kind of nerd, so yeah, I could have guessed.

SPEAKER_02 11:39

Yeah, yeah. So, how do you get from nerdy high school kid to be like, I'm gonna do some beer shit?

SPEAKER_04 11:45

Um, so beer, I always thought beer could be more elevated than it was in our country at the time. Um, so uh lucky enough growing up in Holland, uh, there was uh um like my first like wow experience. Like I was really lucky. My parents never really put beer on a pedestal or alcohol on a pedestal. Like I was allowed to have like a beer, but I couldn't go anywhere. So usually that ended up like shooting me in the foot more often than not because the second I would open my beer and take a sip, it's gonna be like, hey, you want to go out? And I'm like, but but I just opened it. And uh um was allowed to have like one beer or like whatever for special occasions I got. And always thought um like Bex or Heineken or those were like the the cool beers, the good beers.

SPEAKER_02 12:27

Yeah, the weird ones, right?

SPEAKER_04 12:28

Yeah, the unique one, like the things that that at that point in time were like the unique dogs. And uh um, I'll never forget it. I was like 20, 21 at a party, and I'd had like a six-pack of like I scored a six-pack of Bex because that's was like my jam. And somebody asked, he's like, Oh, I haven't had that in a long time, but he had Sierra Nevada pale ale and he traded me for one. I took it, and like that was my first experience with like a really hoppy Pacific Northwest hop, hopped uh pale ale. And I was just like, first sip was like, Oh my god, that was horrible.

SPEAKER_02 12:59

Was it like or was it like it was what the fuck did you just give me?

SPEAKER_04 13:03

It was confusion at its finest. I was like, I don't know why I like this. And then um a little bit later in the party, same guy like, hey, you want to do that again? And I was like, uh yeah, definitely. And then I was also super lucky that New Holland Bruin came in and started doing some craft beer in town, and that was like right when I turned 21. Uh, so I think I spent some of my 21st birthday at the original New Holland space and just was like, wow, beer can be this. And that was when I had that aha moment and tried to get into wine because of the culture behind it, but it just never really fit me.

SPEAKER_02 13:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 13:36

Um, but I loved that, and so I think one of my pinnacle moments as far as a brewer or a beer person was the uh when I became a certified Cicero, was just that I became like beer's equivalent of a smaller. And what does that process look like? Um, so it's it's a there's four levels of it. There's a certified beer server that like a lot of bartenders will take just to like prove it's like an online test and a certificate. Uh to become a certified, it um it was like I studied all summer for it. Um call my friends and be like, hey dude, I've got like six American stouts open. I'm watching the Tigers. Do you want to come over and like taste beer with me? Um, but the actual exam is like an 11-page written exam. It's no multiple choice, it's all short answer essays, and then you have like a 12-sample tasting exam where you have off-flavor analysis. You know, is this beer okay or is it got an off-flavor? Uh, style identification, is this beer more of an American lager or uh German Hellas or whatever they choose to do? And then uh the last part was uh four commercial examples, and they would spike a couple of them. And the whole like scenario was you're a manager at a beer bar, somebody sends this beer back. Would you consider would you continue to serve it? Why or why not? And you had to percent pass with like uh upper 70s, I believe it was at the time. And so yeah, I I took the first test. Uh first test, I like just nailed my written, which I was super stoked about, but I had a couple snafuos on the tasting. I think I overthought the tasting, and so I had to go back and redo my tasting. But then when I redid my tasting, it was like uh I think it was like 96% or something like that. So super excited about that. And I got to go back to Chicago because at the time you had to go to Chicago to take the test. So I got to go back to Chicago and hang out at Half Acre afterwards, and like walked in and uh chat at Pigeon Hill. Like him and I were great friends in the homebrew days, and he's like, Oh, I love Chicago, I'll drive with you down there. So he was at Half Acre hanging out. I walked in and he's like, How'd you do it? I'm like, I think I nailed it, and he was like, Hell yeah.

SPEAKER_02 15:34

So dude, yeah. So so when did you even get involved with brewing? Like, like uh when when did when did your relationship with beer get serious? Like who said I love you first?

SPEAKER_04 15:45

Um well, it's definitely uh I well, after a couple beers, it was like definitely an I love you man, me too beer. Um, but yeah, like I said, I always just felt like beer could be what I now envision it and how I make it now. Um, that it could be an elevated beverage where for so long it was, I don't want to say bastardize, but it was kind of like when I be like when I was like my early 20s, like if my parents were like we were hanging out at their house, they're like, Oh, there's beer in the fridge for Ryan, like because they don't want me drinking their nice wine, you know. And now I'm like, Yeah, sweet. I love like that. Um wanted to start homebrewing in my early 20s, had lost my job, so I um started actually fermenting wine. Um there was a man, uh it was actually my ex-wife's grandfather who used to make farmhouse wine, called him Pip, which is French for grand, you know, grandpi or whatever. So everybody called him Pip. But Pip made farmhouse wine. And so I started doing that, just learned fermentation. And once I uh got my feet back underneath me and uh found gainful employment again, I bought a homebrew kit and started homebrewing. Yeah. And then uh that was probably that was knocking on 20 years ago. Um it was like late 20s, so like not like 18 years ago, I started homebrewing.

SPEAKER_02 16:59

Well, well, what is it about beer and brewing that um pulled you in? Like um and what keeps you and what keeps you a part of it? Like, is it the culture? Is it the is it the the fucking bubbles?

SPEAKER_04 17:14

Uh love that question. Um it's it's a little bit of everything. It's it's just the variety of it. It's um it's the simplicity at the um complex nature of the beverage. Like it's it's something that somebody can just come in as a uh macro beer drinker and come in and try at craft beer and find something that they like. Um, but also just the amount of little things that you can learn and do and tweak. And as a you know, over 12 years as a professional brewer, I'm still like dialing in things, learning things. Um that's because you're still curious, right? Yeah, exactly. And it's um, you know, and ironically, I never really thought of myself as much of a creative until approach to do this. And I just had that like another little epiphany. I'm like, yeah, that's this is how I do art, man. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 18:01

Yeah. And I hope you I hope you look back and you're like, ah, it's so full of shit. I hope you feel that. I hope it hurts.

SPEAKER_04 18:07

No, no, it hurts so bad, man. Um no, it just was always just like a thing I did, and it was it was a cooking, and I'm like, um, now that I'm actually making recipes myself and doing things for Coopersville, not that I didn't do that with Pigeon Hill. Um, so just a little backstory on my professional tenure. Um, about 12, I think they're just gonna celebrate 12 years open this March. I uh was one of Pigeon Hill's first employees, uh, went in to be a professional brewer, which I was like ecstatic about because never really felt that um that was obtainable for me because I was uh in sales, uh I had a house, mortgage, car payment, all that, and like couldn't really go tell my boss, like, hey, I'm gonna take a six to eight weeks uh sabbatical and go train in in a completely non you know related industry. Yeah, you know, kind of got noticed as a homebrewer by the by like Chad and Joel at Pigeon Hill, Chad Joel and Michael, the owners there. Shout out to those guys. It became a possibility, and then uh Chris Carr and I kind of were kind of tapped on the shoulder to help them start their beer program uh with Chad.

SPEAKER_02 19:15

How do you get noticed as a homebrewer?

SPEAKER_04 19:17

Um, I think what um made me noticeable was I brewed a lot with Chad and just like how I did things, I was very made a lot of notes, was very meticulous. Because I mean, homebrewing is a lot of fun and everybody does it for different reasons. And I was always doing it too because I wanted to replicate. I wanted to make a beer that I could make again and again and again, which is pretty much pro-brewing. Yeah and uh I think that's what I think that's how I got noticed, that in like work ethic. Like, and I think some of it was just luck. Like I was just the one in the in the herd that got noticed. Um, I had spent 11 and a half years there, and then by kind of luck and happenstance, found out about the job at Coopersville, and it was kind of what I was looking for, and it was definitely what I needed. So man.

SPEAKER_02 19:59

Yeah, dude. So so you you mentioned a former marriage. We're not gonna dwell on this, we're gonna spend a lot of time on it. But yeah, uh, what I do want to talk about is um well well, first, how old were you?

SPEAKER_04 20:10

Um, so got married super young. I think I was 23, 24 when we got married, and then married for like 17 years. Um, uh got like kind of separated during COVID. Okay. Uh, so that was a really fun add-on um to that. But yeah, so yeah, living in the office for a couple of years during uh shutdown was an interesting part of life, but it was also um good because it was a very cordial divorce, like we both are um still friendly. We do uh we share custody of our Labrador.

SPEAKER_02 20:41

So I love that. Yeah. So after 17 years, it's just like in an instant, you have to you have to kind of meet yourself again, I would imagine, to some degree, right?

SPEAKER_04 20:50

Yeah, it was a big reinvention moment for me. Like I was I was a kid when I got married. I like did all the things because people told you that you had to do the things, and this is what happens, and this is what should this is what you you know. Once I got into craft beer, um just started learning and becoming like I said, I think I like my creative side got open and I just didn't even really realize it, and just yeah, so many things happened.

SPEAKER_02 21:12

So then coming out on the other side of things, um like just Ryan. Uh-huh. Um what have you learned about yourself?

SPEAKER_04 21:22

You know, um I that's a great question. Um I learned um a lot through um counseling. Like I learned about my um my brain. Uh that's a huge thing. Um, Steph and I have an a joking emoji where it's the uh rhinoceros emoji and uh the brain emoji, um, like rhino brain. Like I learned uh through talking to um my therapist that my my type, my brain type, like I see all possible outcomes. Uh that's kind of like he always he always referred to it as like your super superpower and it can be your kryptonite at the same time, which I loved because I was a nerd. So I was like, okay, I like this guy. Um but yeah, like I see all possible outcomes and I of of like any generic situation, whether it's personal relationships, business relationships, things like that. And the good thing is, like I can do a lot of risk assessment very quickly, um, and also be very, like, very much planner brain, very much calculated. Um, but the downside is you like have thoughts in your head that of situations that probably will never occur too. So you have to just manage that, balance that. Right. Um, and then also like trying to not be pessimistic in like business settings, like as far as meetings or planning meetings and things like that, like that was always a tough thing. But once I had that tool, once I could actually talk to um that was a big conversation that Jeremy at Coopersville and I had when I first started. I'm like, hey, dude, I just see all sides of the coin. So if I come up with things that Not that I'm trying to be a pessimist. I'm probably on board. I want to do this, but I want to think through all of this before we do it. And also it's hard to jump. You know what I mean? Because sometimes it's just like I'm the kid that sits at the cliff for forever and overthinks it, you know, not the one that's like, what could possibly go wrong?

SPEAKER_02 23:09

Yeah, I don't even know what to do with my shoes. I can't possibly do this.

SPEAKER_04 23:12

Yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_02 23:13

So is is pessimism, or rather, was pessimism your your kind of default mode?

SPEAKER_04 23:19

Um, I feel like I feel like yes. I feel like what in that was tough because I never really felt that I was being pessimistic, but I felt that it was being portrayed as that. And I've been really trying to focus on that, especially with uh a new like the new opportunity at Coopersville. Just like, okay, how do I, how am I sounding? How am I coming off? Yeah, this is gonna be good. How am I judging, you know, like or how am I like I'm getting a ton of data thrown, or my brain's trying to like extrapolate way more data than it needs to, like, how is this coming off to other people? And that's been a huge thing for me in the past, and I'm really trying to work on like just being um just better about like out, like just having more of a outview that's just like oh, let's just see what happens, you know. Yeah, and I mean it probably sounds like I'm this huge, like just gnarly pessimistic person, but you know, I'm like normally just a happy-go-lucky guy.

SPEAKER_01 24:14

Yeah, that's how I know you're yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 24:16

So um, but yeah, that's just that's just kind of was like a big thing that I learned and processed in like my um reinvention, if you will, from like previous life to now new life, and just so much awesome stuff has happened once I kind of learned how to deal with those things and make those things. And I think a lot of times when uh I have a misstep, it's just because I revert to that, you know, as far as like a business relationship, a personal relationship. If I have a snafu, it's just like hey, I wasn't trying to be a dick.

SPEAKER_02 24:44

Uh you beat yourself up about that or uh too much. Really?

SPEAKER_04 24:47

Yeah, yeah. Um, I'm trying to be better about it, just be like, nope, I you know, I just gotta move on from it and just myself wrong. Oh yeah, yeah. It's it's been a it's been a big eye-opening uh couple of years for me since uh since COVID and things like that. And then uh but yeah, like I said, this summer's just been a like a really kind of a cool renaissance summer, as uh stressful as it was at times. There was just a lot of things I learned about uh just and it just kind of like getting like a fresh canvas to paint on, you know. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 25:18

So dude, how do you take how do you take criticism when when when someone doesn't maybe maybe they don't dig the painting? You know what I mean?

SPEAKER_04 25:25

Yeah, yeah. Um so uh forward facing, I always, always, always, always, especially with uh industry peers, I my thing has been like if we just stroke each other's egos, nobody's gonna get better. So let's just be, you know, like properly placed comments, critiques, things like that. Um I take it very hard because chances are I've already like in the case of like a beer, I just like I'm probably overanalyzing this already. And then to get that extra one, it was all it's like it can be really difficult, but I just have to remember it's just like it's you know, it's just a comment. And then a lot of times too, once I like zoom out and look at who's giving me the comment, and like, oh yeah, you're just you know, you're not a you're not like coming at it from like a beer judge or a beer critic, you're coming at it from a um just naive consumer standpoint, and it's like, okay, yeah, no, awesome.

SPEAKER_02 26:16

Yeah, well, and like who knows what the fuck people like, right? It's so it's so subjective.

SPEAKER_04 26:21

Well, and that's just it, and I think that's kind of the beautiful thing about beer. Um, and like my you know, my typical dad sayings that I'm starting to get now that I'm in my forties, apparently just comes with age, but um is like, well, if everybody liked the same thing, it'd be easy because we just make one beer, right? And uh so yeah, it's it is definitely like like you said, it's like it's subjective, just like anything. Like uh music, art, like you name it, food. There's so many things for a reason.

SPEAKER_02 26:48

This episode is supported by Creative Mornings Grand Rapids, our local chapter in the world's largest face-to-face creative community. Creative Mornings believes everyone is creative and everyone is welcome. Their monthly lecture series is free and spans over 240 cities across 69 countries. Visit Creative Mornings.com to see what's going on with your local chapter. And by review, West Michigan's Arts and Entertainment Guide. Find out what's going on in the world of local music, art, dining, events, and more, with print magazines at over 500 locations, a weekly newsletter, and online stories at reviewwm.com. And by Merchants and Makers, a collective of local artists, makers, and small businesses. Merchants and Makers puts on markets across West Michigan connecting people with real artists and makers at events that include food trucks, live music, and local shopping. Visit merchantsandmakers.com for information on upcoming events and how to get involved. You live beer. That's a safe, that's a safe statement, I think.

SPEAKER_04 27:44

Yeah, pretty much.

SPEAKER_02 27:45

Right. Uh, but you also run, and I mean like fucking run.

SPEAKER_04 27:50

Yeah, yeah. Um I've kind of uh so part of my renaissance, if you will, is just coming to terms with um aging and like what's healthy for me for running. Um I would I I've run um one fifty miler, two fifty Ks, um, one of which was one of the toughest, uh, the Barclay Fall Classic. So if anybody's into running that's listening, you you know uh it took me a second to register 50k. Yeah, so like 30 something miles, yeah. Jesus. Yeah. Um but that was my uh that was my life for the long time. And uh actually it started running um as almost like just being a my uh my sister had said she was gonna do a mini marathon, and uh which come to find out was a 5k and I'm like, oh I think that's a little shorter than that. And I just I had made a comment, I was way overweight at the time. This was like just at the beginning of starting to brew. I was a much bigger rhino at the time. And uh, well, if you do it, I'll do it with you. And it just the fire got lit and I loved it. And it just the people I met along the way, and it just ties so much into beer. So, like when I was first starting out at Pigeon Hill, um, Run Muskegon was starting, they're the local run club. Uh Alana, who is Michael's wife and uh the uh head of like the front of the house type things for Pigeon Hill, uh, she was one of the co-founders of that. So got into that, and I kind of pulled her aside because I was in sales before becoming a brewer, and I'm like, oh, all this work, I'm gonna just shed weight, you know? And then I realized that you start doing that, you start drinking beer, and uh that that doesn't happen. So I was like, I want to do a little bit more than like a 5k or a 10k. I think I want to do a half marathon. So um I trained for a half marathon, I loved it. Was gonna do the riverbank 25k, and then got uh after like a Wednesday at Run Club after two beers, got talked into doing my first marathon because it was only it's only a few more miles. But there's there's there's a beer, there's an op because it was in Kalamazoo. So there's an Oberon beer station and there's a bacon aid station, like when you go to get like fuel or water, like somebody had bacon out, and uh so that was like the the the convincing point of doing this, and uh trained really hard for it, did really well. Um, spent a lot of miles with a lot of good friends, and I've just found more it was more about the journey to the race, and the race almost became the victory lap. Um did horrible at that race because it was like the most warm, it was one of the warmest mays. It was the year that Kailmazu had the tornado. So the tornado hit the day before. Um just yeah, did not stick to my race strategy and uh still finished the race, but just did not do as well as I had planned. Um, and then uh that fall to get redemption, I actually signed up for the Chicago Marathon as part of the Alzheimer's team to raise money for Alzheimer's. Did that in uh memory of my grandma and uh did way better. And then ever since then, it was just like it just kind of had took off from there. So started getting into trail running, which I loved even more because it put me out in the woods.

SPEAKER_02 30:59

See, I feel like that's how I'm gonna hurt myself.

SPEAKER_04 31:01

Yeah, yeah. And honestly, it just kind of becomes like part of the thing. Like, you know, you're gonna it's like that weird, like it almost feels like Zen-like, like you know you're gonna fall, it's just gonna happen. You just don't know. Get over it. Yeah, and you just learn to kind of take a fall in the trails, and that was just I I fell in absolute love with trail running because it was just the perfect blend of meditation, uh, exercise. Um, and actually I found like, and I think that's why I loved ultra running so much for as long as I did, is I would run so much and I would just think through so much of my week, my life, relationships, good, bad. I'd get angry, I'd get happy, I'd get sad. And then all of a sudden it was like you almost thought all the thoughts because you're out there for four or five hours training.

SPEAKER_02 31:45

It's just as much about the your mental as it is the physical.

SPEAKER_04 31:47

Yeah, your brain just shut down and you were just like in this like weird, like meditative zen state.

SPEAKER_02 31:52

Just some rhino time.

SPEAKER_04 31:54

Yeah, exactly. Exactly. And then sometimes too, you'd have uh four or five hours where you're running with friends and you just talk about life and all the fun things and have great conversations, and and the snacks are way better at trail running. Like everybody would bring like licorice and and you're burning like, and I mean, it's not like you're eating good things, but you're burning so many calories that it just kind of doesn't matter. So yeah, so you just it was it just became uh I joined a group called the Hobby Jagas, they're a group that runs out of Hoffmaster State Park, and I just learned I just fell in love with the the sport and the people and just the connections, and yeah, just it just became my form of uh meditation and probably escaping a little bit for that part of my life, and yeah, it was great, it was a great off switch.

SPEAKER_02 32:35

Dude, your your propensity for um endurance kind of also explains your love of jam bands.

SPEAKER_04 32:43

Oh god, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 32:44

Because those one of the brothers actually will play for like 10 hours.

SPEAKER_04 32:48

So um I I have a friend who's a big fish fan, and um there there was a doormat that I wanted to get for him forever that it just said it said, hope you like 20-minute tweezer jams, fish song. And uh and so yeah, Steph actually sent me a uh a uh jam band meme last night. I'm like, why does everybody send me these memes? But it was about like a 20-minute like yeah, oh, this one's different because this, you know, but um I think actually jam bands are really good for my brain. Um sometimes they even get a little long for me, but I think one of the things I found like back in the day, and I didn't I don't think I knew I found it till I found more about my brain, but um, there's so much going on that like it's it's almost like uh like the bilateral stimulus stimulation in a weird way, where you it like the music goes through your brain, right um, and uh it almost like causes you to not think while you're listening to it. And so I think in a dumbed down way, that's why I fell in love with jam bands.

SPEAKER_02 33:44

Dude, I love that. Do you do you find that music plays a role at all when you're when you're thinking through maybe a recipe or something you want to do with?

SPEAKER_04 33:51

Oh, definitely, definitely. And as much as I love jam bands, I'm very much into all forms of music. I've gone through many different uh iterations of rhino with different music. Uh, was super into punk rock for a long time. Um, but jam bands were always the like Grateful Dead was always the one that was a Jerry was always there for me. Yeah, I love that. Um, and then like uh when fish started getting popular when like when I was in high school, that was cool. And then uh now goose. Um, but um I've always I've I've had so many iterations of like uh used to be a huge unwritten law fan. Uh all my friends listen to metal, so I kind of listened to metal by proxy, love hip hop, but not a big fan of like some of the themes of hip-hop. So I got into super into nerdcore hip-hop, um, where it's like just a bunch of nerdy, mostly white men rapping about uh Star Wars and Dungeons and Dragons.

SPEAKER_02 34:47

And dude, let's crack open another beer and then and then let's go topic hopping.

SPEAKER_04 34:51

Yeah, let's do it.

SPEAKER_02 34:53

All right, what are we what are we looking at here?

SPEAKER_04 34:55

Uh so this is our Taskers Pilsner. Uh so this is kind of a fun thing. This was a big part of my job uh at Coopersville when I first started, was just kind of taking the recipes and I gotta get this sound.

unknown 35:06

Yep.

SPEAKER_04 35:08

Oh, it's beautiful. Yeah. Never gets old. Um taking it and uh dialing it in. So uh it's always kind of how does it differ? Um it's it well, so that's kind of the that was kind of the good and bad. It's not like I was opening a brewery or working on a brewery that was opening, so it was like I couldn't change things too much because people knew it and loved it, but it was just like dialing it in, making it taste the same exact, making it taste the same every time, and then just trying to improve upon it. So worked on hops a little bit and it's a pilsner, so there's very little brain in it. Yeah, it was just like playing with hopping ratios and how we did the hops and things like that.

SPEAKER_02 35:44

Is there anything else we should talk about before we go topic hopping?

SPEAKER_04 35:46

No, I think so. I think we're good.

SPEAKER_02 35:47

All right. Well, let's make a let's take a sharp turn.

SPEAKER_04 35:50

All right.

SPEAKER_02 35:51

Um when you're gone, what do you hope people say about you?

SPEAKER_04 35:55

Oh man, that's great. Um you know, as simple as it is, I just hope people just remember me as like a good dude. That that he was a good friend, he was always there, and I hope yeah, I hope most of all, like the that people I love know how much I truly love them because I love so hard, and sometimes I'm not really great at showing it, or I show it in a weird way.

SPEAKER_02 36:19

What do you mean what do you mean you show it in a weird way?

SPEAKER_04 36:22

I'm really good at like I think like the whole love language thing kicks in a little bit, um, with obviously like especially like with partner and things like that, but um cooking is love language for me. So I was like, I love to cook food for people, and people are like, oh cool, you cooked, you know, and you're like, no, no, no, I just gave you a piece of my heart. Yes, and uh and thankfully Steph is very good at seeing that, and so that's been awesome. But just uh just trying my best to show love, and then sometimes too, I can because I overthink things, I can have a hard time with uh relationships, whether it be friendships or things like that. It's it's marriages, yeah, yep. But I'm dumb. Um when uh Steph and I first started dating, it was like I kind of knew I had more of a map of my brain, so that was super cool for that. But then also just trying to be really good about that, and then um uh anxiety, things like that, just making sure that I keep that all in check and whatever. But also, like I said, I just I love super hard and I'm my own worst critic, so sometimes it's like yeah, so I think that's my biggest fear uh overall would be if like I could like look down as I'm like whatever floating away, and people are like, Oh, I just wish I I knew how I stood with that person.

SPEAKER_02 37:38

But I'm like, you know, so like man, I wish you still had some of his ribs in the fridge.

SPEAKER_04 37:44

Yeah, I wish he would have shown me more love. But his ribs were great. Like, that's what I was trying to tell you. But yeah, no, I so I try to say I love you more, just even in uh that's huge, you know, uh friendships, business relationships, like the appropriate level things, like just trying to share that more openly.

SPEAKER_02 38:01

Yeah, that sounds man.

SPEAKER_04 38:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 38:04

Um finish the thought. Okay, creativity requires dedication.

SPEAKER_04 38:11

I think when you're creative, it's um you need to uh stay through. Because if I would have just like if I would have gone off my first batch of beer, um I would have been like, yeah, I'm no good at this. So I think just tell me tell me about your first time real quick. Actually, you know what? Um I was actually listening to some back podcasts about, and I think you asked Joe Short the same question. I did. And uh honestly, my first batch of beer, because I'm such a rule follower, like I grew up on on Lego sets too, being a nerd. So I'm like, okay, this is the you do the steps, you do the things. And first one actually did not turn out that bad. Now, if I could go back in time and try it, I might tell you a different story now with my beer palette now, but um it actually turned out really well. Um, the second batch, train wreck.

unknown 38:56

Really?

SPEAKER_04 38:57

Train wreck. What was it? Um, so it was comp so looking back, um I think the homebrew shop that I had gotten it from, uh, the yeast was really bad in that they give you in the pack. So I learned a valuable lesson, like check validity of your yeast. And I think that's something you still, you know, that's huge in my world. Um, and uh clean, you know, cleaning, sanitation, all that stuff. Because I think it was just kind of one of those like I got like lulled to a false sense of hope with the first one. And and not that I wasn't meticulous on the second go-around because also I'm Dutch and I'm like, hey, I just spent all this money on this. I gotta make this good. Um, but yeah, no, the second one I was actually out fly fishing with a couple friends, and I brought a couple bottles, and we had a couple bottles left of my first batch. I'm like, but oh don't worry, I got a new batch. We cracked them open, and I could just see the like the smiles kind of go more level faced.

SPEAKER_01 39:46

Oh fuck, we're gonna have to drink this and look at him in his face.

SPEAKER_04 39:49

We got the homebrewer in the boat with us. Good thing we brought a 12-pack of coors.

SPEAKER_01 39:55

Oh man.

SPEAKER_04 39:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 39:56

All right, what would your what would your last meal be?

SPEAKER_04 39:59

Oh. Depending on where I was at, like, in eating, it would probably be something.

SPEAKER_02 40:08

Um wait, wait, wait, what is that? What do you mean where you're at in eating?

SPEAKER_04 40:11

Well, like if I just had Mexican food before, I probably wouldn't say. I see. But I'm a huge fan, I like I love authentic Mexican food. Like just like I just love watching YouTube videos of uh somebody's abuela cooking food. I've learned I've learned like cooking Spanish enough to where I can like at least roughly understand like somebody could talk to me in Spanish, I'd be like, I have no idea what you're saying, but like in the kitchen setting, like I know what you're taught. Like um, so I I've just again food being a love language and a newfound hobby. Once I started brewing professionally, um I love I love all things Mexican food. And then I also have a huge affinity for Chinese food. So if I had just had Chinese food, it would probably be Mexican. If it was like I just had Mexican food, it would probably be Chinese. Or but yeah, but overall I would definitely say probably tacos.

SPEAKER_02 40:58

I love it.

SPEAKER_04 40:59

Yep.

SPEAKER_02 40:59

I love it. Um what's the what's the best or the worst advice you've ever received?

SPEAKER_04 41:05

Um I'll go with the worst. Um and it pertains to like relationship. Well, that just happens. You should that's just how you should feel at this phase in your relationship, you know, like because feeling like a relationship had gone off the phone.

SPEAKER_02 41:23

That just feels like bullshit.

SPEAKER_04 41:24

Yeah, and it just it just it just reeked of it. Um that and then um this was always a great one. Um, there's never a good time to have kids. Or never a good time, you know, because it'd be like it's just never having kids. That was always the like you got asked by all like family member, you always had the one and kind of like a like a uh like you're never gonna be ready, just do it, get it. Yeah, just do it, yeah, you're never gonna do it. And I just remember um that got brought up a lot, and it was just like, no, just trying to figure out where we're where we're at with things, and yeah, and that was always like you you don't know where we're at, like dude.

SPEAKER_02 41:59

And I so when you said there's never a good time to have kids, like you know, my wife and I made the decision we're not having kids. Yep, and I was like, Yeah, no, that's great advice. That's that's perfect for me. There it there is never a good time to have kids. That said, I'm the best uncle in the world.

SPEAKER_04 42:15

Yep, and me too. I I've been super lucky. Um have uh twin niece and nephew that are actually in college now, so that makes me feel old as that's fucking gnarly, yeah. Um, and then um just so many things, you know, and then um I get to hang out with uh Steph's adults on Nate, and that's a really great vibe, too. Not that it's you know, because he's all grown and all that, so it's not definitely not like a stepdad thing or anything of that nature at all, but it's he's such a good kid.

SPEAKER_02 42:47

Yeah, God, I love that.

SPEAKER_04 42:48

Yeah, so there's there's that fun part of it, but yeah, never never had any inkling. Um, I mean when I was younger, because there again, you just like felt that was the thing you're supposed to do, get married and have kids, right? And uh right.

SPEAKER_02 42:58

There was uh that was the map, right?

SPEAKER_04 43:00

That was like the next step in the okay, you're married now. How how many years till you have children? You know, and it just never felt right.

SPEAKER_02 43:06

Dude, I remember I remember when Sarah, my wife, um first, first was like, Yeah, I don't I'm I'm not in I don't think I want to have kids. I was kind of like, Can you do that? Are you allowed to do that? Wait, is there isn't there a rule? Because if you can do that, I would like to not do that. I would like to not have kids. Right.

SPEAKER_04 43:24

This this will work okay, you know.

SPEAKER_02 43:25

Like I like to go, like we, I mean, you know this. We're we're we're big uh uh Disney World people, we're fucking Disney adults, and I wear that with a with a with a with a badge of honor, man. Um I could not imagine taking a kid there.

SPEAKER_04 43:40

That sounds terrible. Well, and also, too, I'm I'm guessing going as an adult and just seeing like the perplexity of meltdowns.

SPEAKER_02 43:50

Dude, let me tell okay, so my favorite one ever was we were leaving Magic Kingdom at the end of the night, and uh maybe like not even 10 feet in front of us, there was a mom and a kid that was probably a little bit too old to be in the stroller, uh-huh, but they probably just had a 13-hour day.

SPEAKER_04 44:09

Whatever. And they were like, Yeah, you ride the stroller.

SPEAKER_02 44:11

Yeah, and uh, and uh he kept dragging his feet, you know, and so the mom's like, pick up your feet, pick up your feet. Now, this is when I realized that the mom had also just had a 13-hour day.

SPEAKER_01 44:25

Because she just dumped that motherfucker out of the out of the stroller and was like, walk, and then just backed it up and walked away.

SPEAKER_02 44:34

Oh and I was like, God, like like I just looked over at Sarah and I was like, we're doing fine.

SPEAKER_04 44:39

Yep. This is great. This is okay.

SPEAKER_02 44:44

Ryan, what would your what would your walk up song be?

SPEAKER_04 44:47

Oh, I love this question. Um obviously coming from a jam band background, like That's not really like walk-up music, but um you can find the rhythm. Yeah, yeah. Um as sad and as dirgy as it is, I think Black Muddy River from The Grateful Dead, but that's like the slowest, so it wouldn't be like the super hype song. Otherwise, um I would say probably Fets Vet from MC Chris. Um Nerdcore rapper.

SPEAKER_02 45:13

Yeah, sing it to me.

SPEAKER_04 45:14

Uh Cruzimo Cespa in Mandalorian, The War is Over, My Pista Mandalorian.

SPEAKER_02 45:19

Um what makes you feel most like yourself?

SPEAKER_04 45:28

You know, I think it's just it's more of just a vibe or a feeling. I think it's just like when you're comfortable, um, when you're surrounded by loved ones, uh, good food, good beer, good conversation. It could be a friendship, it can be a partnership, like a romantic partnership type thing. But I think it's just it's more of just a vibe or a feeling.

SPEAKER_02 45:46

Yeah, it's the warmth of the people you love.

SPEAKER_04 45:48

Yeah, I just get like that good cozy feeling. Um, I can't explain it um other than it just it just my brain shuts off. I always tell stuff like my brain shuts off.

SPEAKER_02 45:57

It's easy, you don't have to be on.

SPEAKER_04 45:58

Yep, exactly. And that's that's where I am most comfortable. And it's usually at home, um, especially when Murph, my labrador, is with me, and uh Steph's hanging out, and we're just and we can just be like she can be jamming on her laptop, I can be cooking food, and we could just maybe have a record on or something like that, or we're sitting in the backyard just hanging out. It's like my brain shuts off, and that's where I'm like just the most comfortable.

SPEAKER_02 46:24

Man, when when Murph's not there, or do you do you go crazy a little bit?

SPEAKER_04 46:27

So I'm like home alone alone now because Steph's in Florida visiting her family. And so Murph was with me last week, and uh I dropped him off uh at uh Sarah's my my ex is Sarah as well. So not to be confused with Sarah. Um dropped him off on uh Monday, and so like Tuesday night, like I was like going to bed and I'm like, okay, that and just not having a dog wake you up in the morning.

SPEAKER_02 46:52

I'm fucking quiet right now.

SPEAKER_04 46:54

Whoa.

SPEAKER_02 46:56

Dude, my my uh my dog Winston, he's he he's he's been doing this thing um for a couple weeks now because we like rearranged our room and now he can kind of get to my side of the bed really easy where he just wakes me up in the morning just by putting his chin top of my bed, and then just like he's like maybe an inch away from my face. And the only reason I know he's there is because he's breathing on me, and I can and I can and I can feel the I sense a presence. Morning, bud.

SPEAKER_04 47:25

Yep. So Murph will do almost the something similar where but he's like the most it's like I want I'll call it passive aggressive, but he'll come in and he'll like high step like clacky on the call tap dancing, but it's just like I'm coming in, I'm making noise, and it's like, oh, you're up, dad.

SPEAKER_02 47:45

Oh, I didn't know you would be awake.

SPEAKER_04 47:47

Oh, fancy meeting you here. And it's like, what do you need, buddy?

SPEAKER_02 47:51

Ryan, do you have any regrets?

SPEAKER_04 47:54

I wouldn't say any regrets. Um definitely things um in life, if I could go back and redo them, I would do them, redo them differently in a heartbeat. Because like I said, I the and that's why I think I'm so hard on myself when something does go wrong in a personal relationship, whether it's friendship, whatever, because I in hindsight I see the things and I'm like, oh, I handled that like and I'm like just my worst critic to start with, and then when you have the interaction with friend, partner, whatever, you're just like, yeah, I'm already kicking myself in the nuts, like you know. Um, but I don't really have regrets because I I I think I hopefully learn from all those, and I try my best to never repeat behavior. But I mean it happens, I'm human, but try my best to be like be even if it's a smidge better, if I was a if I was a D minus last time, hopefully I'm a C plus this time, and then hopefully next time I'll be I'm a B minus kind of situation. Yeah. And that was always the thing. Like I always as a kid, like, would do something stupid and just be like, oh, I wish I could go back and take that back.

SPEAKER_02 48:56

And it wasn't that I regretted it, it was just that like fuck, I wish I learned this lesson in a different way.

SPEAKER_04 49:03

Like the old, yeah, you're gonna be dumb, you gotta be tough kind of thing. Um, no, so yeah, definitely I don't think there's really anything I regret, um, other than like trying to like express my creativity like earlier on in life. But I think overall, no. I just it just definitely some if if I got some do-overs, I would definitely go back and select the top five, or if I got five do-overs, I'd go pick the top five and get some do-overs, but no regrets, man.

SPEAKER_02 49:30

I love that. Um last question for you.

SPEAKER_04 49:33

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 49:33

Are you okay?

SPEAKER_04 49:35

I'm almost there, man. I'm almost there. I'm doing really good. Doing really good. And uh, new job and things like that are doing great. So yeah.

SPEAKER_02 49:42

Things are looking up.

SPEAKER_04 49:43

Yes, I'm I'm super excited for the next chapter. And like I said, I'm uh I'm at a B minus, like a my analogy previously. So I'm I'm looking forward to getting to that A.

SPEAKER_02 49:53

Well, you said you said you're in therapy.

SPEAKER_04 49:54

Yeah, you're you're I want to get back into it. Um, I'm gonna try my best. Um, and so yeah, that's I love that, dude.

SPEAKER_02 50:01

I'm so happy you're taking care of yourself.

SPEAKER_04 50:03

I'm so happy you're on and it's okay not to be okay.

SPEAKER_02 50:05

So cheers of that, man.

SPEAKER_04 50:08

Yeah, cheers.

SPEAKER_02 50:10

All right, dude. Um, before we wrap this up, where can people find you if you want that?

SPEAKER_04 50:15

Oh, yeah. Um, so um obviously at the brewery in Coopersville, Michigan, Coopersville Brewing Company. Um all our Coopersville socials are under that. Uh One Eyed Pizzas Our Restaurant, um, where uh the infamous Kyle Murray reigns. Um, but my Instagram, it's just a personal Instagram, but feel free to check it out. It's called uh uh it's at feed the rhino. So because like I said, food is my language, so yeah.

unknown 50:42

I love it.

SPEAKER_04 50:43

Yeah, but other than that, that's kind of kind of it. But yeah, if you ever uh if you're ever at Coopersville, come and say hi. I'd love meeting new people and chatting beer, love nerding out about it.

SPEAKER_02 50:51

So it's my favorite.

SPEAKER_04 50:53

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 50:53

I love it so much, dude. Thank you so much for doing this. Oh, thank you for having me. I really appreciate it. It's amazing. Thank you for bringing beer, by the way. I'm surprised. Can you imagine some people don't bring stuff?

SPEAKER_04 51:03

I think everybody should be uh required to bring a beverage and talk about the beverage.

SPEAKER_02 51:07

So no, I'm fucking around. But dude, thank you so much. Yeah, of course. Anytime let's get out of here. All right, let's do it.

SPEAKER_00 51:12

Chicken Todd of him and all these noises in my head. I can't seem to make them go away.

SPEAKER_02 51:20

Bad Idea Social Club is an independent podcast made possible by merch sales, reviews, and listener support. And it's created and hosted by me, graphic designer Aaron McCall, and co-hosted by photographer Joe Madison. Music is noises by Mike Mains in the branches. Get Bad Idea Social Club wherever you get your podcast.