Amy Carroll: The Problem

Amy Carroll (photographer, artist) sits down with Aaron McCall to talk about identity, ego, and the long process of figuring out who you actually are. She gets into building a career that looks good on the outside but feels empty, learning how to create work that people can actually feel, and the shift from chasing attention to chasing something real. They talk about aging, confidence, creative evolution, and what it takes to let go of control long enough to make something honest.

Keep up with Amy Carroll:
amycarroll.photography
IG: @amycarrollphotography

——
This episode is supported by:
Creative Mornings Grand Rapids
Merchants & Makers
Revue
——
Writer/Producer/Editor/Host:
Aaron McCall
aaronmccall.net
IG: @aaron_mccall
——
Co-Host/Sidekick/Photographer:
Joe Matteson
themattesons.co
IG: @joe_dustin
——
Music:
"Noises" by Mike Mains & The Branches
——
Support the Podcast:
Buy Merch
——
Follow Bad Idea Social Club:
badideasocialclub.com
IG: @badideasocialclub

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:53

Photography felt a little glamorized for a moment, and then I felt glamorized for a moment, and then I just was like, yeah, like I just felt, I don't know, too big-headed about it. And that was kind of gross.

SPEAKER_04 1:22

Are you ready? My fanny pack is tight.

SPEAKER_01 1:27

Hey everybody, welcome back to Bad Idea Social Club. My name is Aaron McCall. I'm Joe Madison.

SPEAKER_04 1:32

I was thinking about it. I'm so stoked for this season. We're upwards of like 70 conversations with like amazing creatives and people that have just chosen to do this thing their own way. This is an exciting place to be.

SPEAKER_01 1:44

I think so too, man. And if and if and if you've been around for a while, you know what this is. We sit down with creative people and talk about the stuff that makes us who we are as creatives. The good stuff, the messy stuff, the weird stuff, all of it. Yep. But also we we added cameras. So if you've ever wondered what these conversations look like, or you wanted to see my fucking mug, um uh now you can watch new episodes on YouTube and Spotify.

SPEAKER_04 2:14

Jury's out on whether this is a good idea or not. But on this topic, what what mug are you using today, Aaron? What you got? What mug are you using? I'm using my creatures of the night.

SPEAKER_01 2:23

Oh, dude. Does it glow in the dark or anything? No. Uh so the original artwork though, like for the record, like the eyes did glow in the dark. Dope. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 2:32

They need to. Here's mine. I just pour my coffee into this hand and slurp up what I can get. So nothing?

SPEAKER_01 2:39

Yeah, pretty much. Oh, you're weird and I don't like it. Yeah. You should know this by now. Um, you know, so before we do get into this whole thing, though, I do I do want to take a moment and um acknowledge the loss of our friend Scott Millington. Um Scott was a photographer and a hugely active part of the Michigan creative scene. Um his Here is Their Story series was a huge inspiration uh in in making this podcast a reality. And um, you know, I I will always cherish um the conversation that we recorded together and not to mention the the the countless uh other conversations that guy and I had had that were just for us. Um it was in honor to be photographed by him and and even more so a privilege just to just to know the guy.

SPEAKER_04 3:48

Yeah, there's I mean, photo is an amazing thing because it creates memories of things that you're capturing, but it's also amazing because it creates a memory of the person that captured it. So he has a legacy of just being devoted to the community around him, and you know, I only got a couple events of actually spending time with him, but that alone had an impact on me.

SPEAKER_01 4:11

Um we're all gonna be better for or we all probably are better because we got to spend some time with him.

SPEAKER_04 4:22

Yeah. With that being said, who do we got today here, Michael?

SPEAKER_01 4:25

Another photographer, Amy Carroll. Uh like I said, she's a photographer, she's a painter, uh, an artist whose work is uniquely grounded in real life. Um Amy has spent years uh creating and capturing uh images that don't just look beautiful, like they actually feel like something, like like they're almost tangible. Um but she's also someone who keeps evolving, like not just in her work, but in how she sees herself as an artist, as a woman, and as a person getting more comfortable in her own skin every single day. Um and and and you know, we we got into a lot too. We talked about photography uh and painting, obviously, but also um aging and trusting yourself and what it looks like to gain a clearer image of who you are and and who you see in the mirror.

SPEAKER_04 5:23

Yeah. In in that vein, um, I was really thinking about the fact that this is something I've never really said out loud before because I always worry about what it's gonna give off or what the assumption will be in relation to this statement, but when it comes to my personal character and things that I've learned that have always been a part of me and I had to live with, and I'm not super stoked that we're always there, um people pleasing literally almost killed me. Um in long story short, because when I went on my senior spring break trip, I got sick just before. Probably many people have heard this story, so I'm not gonna go over it too much. But um, when I got sick before we left for the trip, I was so worried about affecting other people's experience that I pushed through and insisted that it was something that it wasn't. And that led to me being in New Orleans, dying in a hotel. And I waited a almost a week to go into the hospital because again, I did not want to affect anyone's experience on their trip. Um okay, so at my healthiest, people pleasing comes into a space where I love service and I love servicing people, and I love like you do. Yeah, I knew you were gonna say that. I love obsessing about like what is gonna make someone's day, and then how I can go one step beyond that. And in my field, that makes huge waves because people remember that experience because of that. At my most unhealthy in this regard, I'm I disregard any boundary I have, or I just don't make any boundaries at all. Today, today you do? Hell yeah. Hell yeah. I'm I'm working on it, I constantly work on it. But yeah, nowadays, more so than ever, it is important that we stick to what we believe and what we know to be right. And that's who I want to be. I want to be that one where it's like, no, I know that if Joe's confronted in this way, he's gonna stand up for me or the people like me.

SPEAKER_01 7:19

And I think you're a little bit full of shit.

SPEAKER_04 7:21

Okay, you love saying that to me. Well, get your head out of your ass. Okay, that's fair. I am happy to hear that because oftentimes, too, when you're working on yourself, you're too close to see the progress that you've made. And and it's nice to hear that others see progress in that. And you're not even saying progress, you just see that I'm better in that way. But yeah. Okay, before we dive in, don't forget to follow wherever you're listening. Leave a five-star review, and don't forget to tell your friends.

SPEAKER_01 7:48

Um, also, this thing runs on merch sales and listener support and uh reviews. So head over to badideasocialclub.com, maybe buy something, help us help us out with this whole thing. Shipping is always free. Um, and I think our shit's pretty cool. So dope. Here's uh here's my conversation with Amy. As we were just kind of talking about off mic, this is the first chance we've ever had to like sit down and like really mix it up, really fuck shit up a little bit. I like it. So, first thing I want to know is about your relationship with your camera.

SPEAKER_00 8:25

My gosh, I don't think anybody's ever asked me that question before. Um, so it's interesting. I think my relationship with my camera, if I'm thinking about it, it just feels like an extension. I feel like with the first time I ever picked up a my camera or a camera when I bought it 20 years ago, it was an icon. It fit my hand, and it just like immediately felt like this extension that I could then do what I wanted to do and create how I wanted to create. And it's always kind of been like that. Um, I'm not a super techie camera girl.

SPEAKER_01 8:52

I feel like um it's vibes for you.

SPEAKER_00 8:55

It's more vibes than it is like all of the minutia of the camera itself. I really just wanted to create and I've really kind of dialed in to do that. I'm a little bit moodier of a photographer, so I kind of dial down my tones a little bit, and that's kind of how I shoot. But my relationship with that camera, it really I guess it's just really being able to create something beautiful and just having that extension. It feels like the most natural thing to have it in my hand.

SPEAKER_01 9:20

So, like, where's the line between like an extension of you and a and a tool?

SPEAKER_00 9:24

I never really think of it as a tool.

SPEAKER_01 9:26

I love that.

SPEAKER_00 9:27

Yeah, I I've never even put that into context. Um, no, it just I'm sorry for doing that then. No, it's I mean, it's a good valid question, and it's honestly like I feel like I'm gonna be thinking about this later tonight and like, no, I should have said this. Um, but no, it really just feels like how I can achieve exactly what I want to do with it. Um, you know, when I first started doing photography, um, I just felt poor and I wanted better cameras. And, you know, so certainly it's, you know, I've been able to upgrade and and change to the things that I can really then finesse a little bit more. But really, it's just always been this natural extension so that I can create what I want to create with it.

SPEAKER_01 10:04

And I well, in your work, it's it's it feels very human, right? Like it, it, it feels very grounded. And I would imagine just starting out, like you don't start there.

SPEAKER_00 10:16

I've always wanted my pictures to be able to be felt, not just a really beautiful image. And I don't know how to like say that better.

SPEAKER_01 10:27

You know, I I I actually have that in my notes that I'm like, I kind of almost feel like I can like talk to these people, right? Almost like I can like pet the animal or what I don't know. It's like it it feels tactile, like it feels like like a real thing and not like a product.

SPEAKER_00 10:45

Yeah, good. That's always that's always what I want with the people I'm working with. I never want them to feel like I'm just okay, we're gonna come over here and pose. I I think movement feels really natural. I feel like taking in the natural elements around us is what I'm always trying to like contextually do, but then putting it all together, a beautiful setting and everything going. And so many people are so worried that they're not photo people or they don't feel comfortable in front of a camera that I feel like most people say that. And everybody, when they just move and they're just authentically who they uh want they are together, that's the beauty of it, like trying to capture that.

SPEAKER_01 11:22

I've worked with a with a lot of photographers, and I think it takes a special photographer to pull out uh that like genuine uh sense of self that that person probably has. Um and I kind of think that for and and maybe I'm putting words in your mouth, tell me to shut the fuck up if I am, but like um for for photographers like you, like it it fe it it feels almost effortless.

SPEAKER_00 11:47

And I really think like as I'm thinking about it more, I think that there's an element of just natural cute like human curiosity that I really connect with the people that I'm working with. And I think like as we're walking along and I'm getting to know a couple or seeing them again or whatever that might be, I'm often just asking them questions. I'm naturally curious anyway. Like I I ask everybody everything. Where did you grow up? Where did you all these different things? And I feel like throughout that, I can then kind of find this like common thread and kind of common connection that I have with these people that I can make them feel a little bit more at ease. Like we can find that commonality. And I feel like when those guards go down and those walls go down, and that's not something that's a force effort on my part. I'm not trying to do that to it, just kind of naturally comes out and then they're feeling a little bit more relaxed. They feel seen, they feel heard. They're like, you know, I hope that they know I'm trying to get to who they are and not just walking into a beautiful place and photographing them. And I feel like all that kind of comes through and hopefully like then kind of intersects into this like really beautiful, like their guards are down and they can relax enough to like really just let themselves be who they are. And that's kind of always what I'm trying to do. And I feel like that human connection is, I think, sometimes missing in a lot of the pictures that I see. You know, I can see a great, beautiful picture of a bride and groom on a on a mountaintop or in Iceland and they're all gorgeous, but I don't, there's not, I mean, I don't feel anything, I don't feel anything at all. And I feel like when people are truly feeling themselves, that's when you get those great imagery.

SPEAKER_01 13:17

What about the what about the um fine art side of photography?

SPEAKER_00 13:22

The fine, that's a whole different ball.

SPEAKER_01 13:24

Yeah, that's gotta be a completely different muscle, right?

SPEAKER_00 13:26

Yeah. And a lot of that, so the fine art photography. So to go back a little bit, I I used to as just a creative break for myself. I would just get in my car and drive around. And this was back in like maybe 2012. And I remember just driving around and I wanted a piece of art for my own wall, and I wanted it to feel kind of southwest. I don't know why I'm very driven to the southwest. I don't live in the southwest, never really spent a ton of time there, but just like those vibes. And um, I would photograph animals. Animals are just, I love being around them. I don't have a lot. So a lot of people actually thought I lived in a farm for a long time because I would just constantly be taking pictures of animals and posting them. Um, and I took this one picture of a longhorn and it kind of like stamped me into the fine art world because of this one image, but I really took it for myself. I wanted a picture of a bull with these really long horns and just kind of looking at me and just like really just like cool vibes. And I remember taking this one picture and I was like, ah, this is this is it. And I remember getting home and I wanted it in black and white, and I really enjoyed playing around with that. Um, and a friend of mine was like, when I I think I had shared it with her, and she's like, You should you should send this in. You should, you know, I I work with minted, which is an online, you know, creative community. They do, you know, a lot of people know them for invitations and things, but they also have a really big, like fine art and artist-based um part of their business. And she was like, they often run these like contests, or I don't know, maybe not contests, but um, where you can kind of upload art and it's critiqued and can often, you know, get into their system and they often partner with bigger brands. So I decided to take her up on it. And this one happened to be in conjunction with West Elm. And I sent it in and that piece just blew up. It was everywhere. It was crazy. Um, and it was really cool that they kind of took a chance on this picture and then it ended up being in a lot of magazines. It was in celebrity homes. I would see it pop up in all these different places. Like people were begging to get this image. I, you know, after it went to minted, I couldn't personally like even sell it. I didn't own the copyrights to it anymore. So it direct them there, but it was just it was in Target.

SPEAKER_01 15:39

Like it really just like that feeling of seeing it all over the place everywhere. That can't get old.

SPEAKER_00 15:45

I mean, it doesn't. It was just really, it was really neat. People would be sending it in all the time. They're like, oh, it was in this magazine. And it was just like a really cool, like, I that was just never my intent, right? That was just built out of my own love and wanting things from my own wall. So then it really obviously got those wheels spinning. And I was like, what else can I create? So um, you know, the animals, this was kind of before animals as artwork was kind of everywhere. You know, this was back in like 2014 when it really kind of took off. And um I just started, yeah, I was like, great, I can be around animals and take pictures, and this becomes art. And this is it just felt like a really great moment for me. So I really enjoyed that. Um, I started like going to different farms, so I just got to like, and people would invite me to their farms to like photograph their animals, and it was just really incredible. So the fine art side was really fun because it was truly born out of a need for my own walls and wanting art. And, you know, and so I did that for like a number of years, and then it kind of got popular. There was like one other artist who kind of released an image similar. Um, it was a different animal, but we we were both kind of everywhere for a while. And then, of course, the copycats came along. And so then, you know, and I'm not even going to try to pretend that I started that, but it was just it kind of all kind of came out at the same time. The popularity of those prints started getting everywhere. They're in then in Hobby Lobby and Michael's, and you know, and I just kind of stopped creating that because I was like, been there, done that. There's all these copycats, like this, you know, and as an artist, you just kind of are constantly evolving. Um, I have a lot of people like, oh, when are you gonna take more animal pictures? And I'm just like, I don't want to say it's dead to me. I would do it for myself personally, but just never again as finer moments.

SPEAKER_03 17:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 17:25

Um, so um, then it just it's always been born out of what do I want to see on my own walls. Like, I'm a little bit quirkier. I started painting. So, like, there's it's always kind of just born out of what do I want to see?

SPEAKER_01 17:36

When did you start painting?

SPEAKER_00 17:38

Um, well, that's a good question. My mom is an artist and she and I would often just paint together. Um, she's an I I always say this, she's an actual artist. Like she went to school for art and she's really technically beautiful. And, you know, she does like if she if you wanted a picture of yourself or of your dog, she would do a really great job of it, where mine is more of an interpretation of that. So I always thought because I couldn't draw accurately, or you know, I didn't paint like she did, that that just immediately withdrew me from the category of being an artist. So we would paint together and I started to just kind of play around with what I wanted, how I wanted to move paint on the, you know, on the canvas or on whatever substrate I was using. And um, I just kind of eventually started doing that more and more. I really enjoyed it. It just really felt like a, you know, it wasn't photography. I love photography, but we all need breaks from the things that we do and churn out sometimes. And in the winters, it's kind of a natural time for me to break. So I would just like, she and I would get together, we would paint, and then 2020 happened. And weirdly, there weren't a lot of weddings, and I needed a little bit of a stress reliever. And so I started painting more and was in some different creative circles um with people to just kind of, you know, we would give each other prompts or things like that, just to kind of focus our minds and be able to do something creatively. And um, that's kind of when it really started being more than just me playing around with paint. So um I've been kind of figuring out who I am as an artist, but have have enjoyed some some success with now with the painting aspect.

SPEAKER_01 19:16

Well, and it sounds like at some point in there you kind of had to redefine the term artist for yourself.

SPEAKER_00 19:20

Yeah. We talk about imposter syndrome, everybody, right? Um, I I still hesitantly call myself more than just a photographic artist. So I and I I enjoy it so much, and I've had people ask me for commissions at this point and and different things were, but I it almost feels unlike I'm playing as a painterly artist. Like I'm not really validated in that arena quite yet, but um I'm enjoying it.

SPEAKER_01 19:51

Well, you just opened up a new shop.

SPEAKER_00 19:52

I did.

SPEAKER_01 19:53

What's going on there?

SPEAKER_00 19:54

Well, I like to monetize my hobbies, so I love that.

SPEAKER_01 19:57

Um I love that A plus plus plus plus.

SPEAKER_00 20:00

Yeah, yeah. And I feel like oftentimes I will say yes because I love the idea of that, and it like kind of forces my hand a little bit. Like I oftentimes will paint in the winter and then a little bit in the spring, and then the summertime gets busy, and then I don't do it at all. And I thought I I thought if I have a shop, then I have to produce all year. And so it was kind of a way to force myself to be um doing something with paint and not just photography, not to say I don't love photography, but it's really good for me to kind of have these different things. And I thought, then maybe I'll say yes to this.

SPEAKER_01 20:34

What is what does painting give you that maybe photography doesn't, or what does photography give you that painting can't?

SPEAKER_00 20:40

Well, painting is so tactile. You know, you're moving in a way like where photography feels like I'm dancing. I feel like with painting, I'm able I'm not great with words, as maybe this podcast will illustrate. And I feel like how I get those things out is with painting. I feel like I can paint the whimsy that I feel, or I can paint, you know, when it's abstract, it's usually when I'm trying to get some sort of emotion out and I just don't know what that is, and sometimes it will come out through that. So I feel like with painting and and now pottery also. I I started that last year, and of course, monetize that. There's I know I have pieces that people have purchased, which is crazy. But yeah, so it's um, you know, photography and painting and now pottery. So all these different things. And the same thing with pottery. I actually spent the majority of today at the pottery studio that I work at, and having your hands in clay and being able to mold that is like even more of an expression. And it feels like it's so grounding without that seeming like too cliche. It's so grounding to have your hands in clay and just like smoothing that out and just making this really beautiful shape. And mine tend to be a little bit, I'm I don't throw pottery, I'm not on a wheel, I'm a hand building. So you can really just kind of like bend that and mold that and and just kind of shape that um however you want. And I really like, you know, I'm I'm often it's it's almost always nature. Like I want something to like feel more organic than I want it to feel perfect.

SPEAKER_01 22:09

Do you ever do it just for you without being like, I'm gonna sell this thing?

SPEAKER_00 22:13

Yeah, that's how it started.

SPEAKER_01 22:14

But then I just had a whole bunch of pieces and I'm like, Oh, well, I mean, I mean, right now in 2026, Amy Carroll, in 2026.

SPEAKER_00 22:20

Yes. I love that. Yep. I and I and I always feel like again, the pottery even started out. When I'm on vacation, I usually buy pottery or art. And so when I'm now making art and making pottery, what do I want? Like, what am I drawn to? And that's that's always where I start is what do I want to see? I'm actually making a piece for our living room and I want something just sculptural and organic and just kind of like free form, something that I can like look at and feel, I don't know, just feel like what I felt when I was making it. That's awesome. It's really fun.

SPEAKER_01 22:50

So, so tell me this. As you are today. Who is Amy Carroll?

SPEAKER_00 22:56

I feel like that's an ever-evolving question. Um, I feel like now I'm in my 40s, I feel much more like okay with boundaries, which has been a big thing for me. So I feel like I'm somebody who like I know who I am. I'm not afraid to say what I do want and I don't want. And that's actually like that's been a big work in progress. I'm a people pleaser. So I would often like put my own needs, wants, fill in the blank to the side so that I could let other people have what they wanted. And I think I'm better at like asking and saying what I need. As an artist, I feel like I love what's happening lately. Like I have always really felt like art was not something that you did for a living. It's always I've known artists, but they always had a a job or a nine to five or something like that. And like I remember growing up and always thinking, like, I just think like artists are so cool. And I never thought like that was me. I never looked inward and said that that could be me, that is me, nothing. And then to see, I feel like the like the 12 or 13-year-old me would look at who I am now and where I've been and what I'm doing and what I'm working on is like pretty damn cool.

SPEAKER_01 24:07

It is. Well, and it's it's funny you say that because I've always kind of thought that being a graphic designer, being an artist for me is is the closest thing I could possibly get to being a fucking rock star. That's how cool it is to me.

SPEAKER_00 24:20

Yeah, it just is never like when I was like, what do I want to be when I grow up? This wasn't it, even though it really was what it was. I just didn't know how to articulate or what that would look like. So I just did the safe route for a while.

SPEAKER_01 24:32

Well, what did you what did you think you would be?

SPEAKER_00 24:35

I remember thinking I was just gonna be what my parents were. Like I didn't really want what like nothing, like no shade for them. Like they have to have a great life, and I respect and love them very much. But I kind of just like didn't think outside of the bounds of like what I grew up as. And I remember even being like in my early 20s, and I was like, Well, I don't know, I guess I need to find a husband and get married and have some kids. And my mom was a stay-at-home mom for a lot of her life until we went to school, and then she, you know, went back to teaching art, which is really cool. Um, but I just really kind of thought I was just gonna live an ordinary life, and I didn't think outside of that for a long time, to be honest. Like I just was like, well, I don't know, I'll figure it out. I went to school for marketing and graphic design. I thought I'd work in an ad agency. I mean, I really didn't think beyond like I could wear cute outfits to work and work on things. And I I did that for many years and I hated it so much. I was like, I felt like I was like clawing at the walls, like, get me out of here. Like I would just like stare out my office, and I had a really beautiful river view. I had a very glossy job, and I would just be like, There's there's gotta be more. I hate this. And I was like, now what? This is what I went to school for, this is what I've put everything into. And I just remember feeling so dissatisfied. And I was like, I have to actually like carve something out for myself. I felt like I was just kind of moving down a river instead of like building the boat and changing the core, like all these different things that like have to happen. And I felt like I was just kind of letting people move me in the directions that I thought they wanted, or just didn't really give us much thought. And then when I started taking pictures out of complete just creative need to get out of this office and like do something, I was like, wait, this is it. This is what it is. And then it's just really been then I I felt like that's when I started, I started being me. That's when I was like, this is who I am. And I felt really great. And that was in my 20s, and then my 30s were pretty great. And then my 40s, I was like, this is fantastic. I felt like I am like, yeah, I'm I'm who I want to be. And I'm surrounded by, I have a really great group of friends. Um, they're really creatively inspiring. I have lots of different, you know, creative outlets. I have lots of people I can talk really like openly with. And I feel like I'm at this point right now where I'm like, I don't know, Amy Carol's kind of cool now. But like I kind of like I feel like I never felt like I had permitted, and I don't mean that like I just mean I'm cool with myself. I don't mean outwardly, you know, like people need to think I'm cool. I just I'm cool with myself. I feel like I'm I'm happy with where I'm at right now.

SPEAKER_01 27:15

I love that. But what do you think? What do you think those detours on the way to get here taught you about yourself?

SPEAKER_00 27:20

You know, there's there's so many because I feel like I'm somebody who's pretty introspective, and I look back at a lot of these different things, and I I was kind of a dick in my 20s.

SPEAKER_01 27:28

I don't really I was too. I know.

SPEAKER_00 27:30

I'm like, and you know, sometimes I look back at some of the things that I did say and in my 30s. Yeah, well, part of that too. I feel like there's a little bridge over for me, also.

SPEAKER_01 27:40

This episode is supported by Creative Mornings Grand Rapids, our local chapter in the world's largest face-to-face creative community. Creative Mornings believes everyone is creative and everyone is welcome. Their monthly lecture series is free and spans over 240 cities across 69 countries. Visit Creative Mornings.com to see what's going on with your local chapter. And by Merchants and Makers, a collective of local artists, makers, and small businesses. Merchants and Makers puts on markets across West Michigan connecting people with real artists and makers at events that include food trucks, live music, and local shopping. Visit merchantsandmakers.com for information on upcoming events and how to get involved.

SPEAKER_00 28:17

And there's some real cringe moments and some moments I'd really like to take back and not have to experience again. But if I'm being honest, I usually learn from th from the things that I don't want to go through again. So how do I not repeat that? So I feel like I've done a good job of like looking inward and saying, okay, this didn't work or this was terrible. What's happening? What's the common denominator? A lot of times it was me. And so I had to do some inner work and I had to, you know, correct some behaviors. I remember when I started getting kind of like known in the photography world. And I kind of, you know, I kind of came into it when there weren't that many female photographers yet. You know, we're in a pretty saturated market as far as you know, photography goes at this point. But 20 years ago, like I was pretty cool. Like I was young and you know, I had all these like fun ideas and my head got really big. Like truly, I was like, people were like, oh my gosh, these are so cool and you're so cool. And I was like, yeah, I really am. And I, I mean, I didn't say that, but I really kind of got into this like territory where I felt like I was cool. And this was also like, there was a rock star photographer moment that happened in, I don't know, let's say 2008, nine, 10, somewhere around there. There was a whole bunch of California photographers that were like making photography look really cool. Like they, they were awesome. A lot of people knew who they were, and then photography felt a little glamorized for a moment, and then I felt glamorized for a moment. And then I just was like, yeah, like I just felt, I don't know, too big headed about it. And that was kind of gross. And um I had a a studio mate, and she and I both kind of I felt like we're in this, and we just kind of like our ego started even attacking each other, and our friendship blew up. Um, and I just like, and then she moved away. And then I just remember like thinking, I'm like, Amy, what are you doing? Like, this is not who you want to be. This is not who you are. Like, why are you acting like this? You take pictures of people, like get off your high horse.

SPEAKER_01 30:19

How old were you when you found that realization?

SPEAKER_00 30:22

Yeah, like late 20s, early 30s. Um, I feel like if you were my friend at that point, you probably know what I'm talking about. Um, and that friend and I that had that blow up, we we have now reconciled and we're very good friends. Oh, good. We've been able to like kind of talk about our um just kind of you know what we were going through at that time. But um, yeah, I feel like the detours do help you if you're able to look back at them and not cringe and not just look away or hide them under a rug. It can help you make yourself a better human going forward, which I feel like I've been working really hard to do. Um, you know, being a lot, you know, just like kinder to myself, but then just like kinder to other people. Like we're all going through it, you know.

SPEAKER_01 31:03

Yeah.

unknown 31:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 31:04

That kind of empathy can't really be learned. It's like in you. You just have to just let it out and get your ego out of the way.

SPEAKER_00 31:09

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 31:09

You know?

SPEAKER_00 31:10

Yeah, my ego is crazy. Like, move that out of there. I don't, I don't enjoy talking to other people who are highly egotistical. That's terrible. I don't want to be that. I never want somebody to walk away from a conversation, like, oh gosh, she's full of herself. Cause that's just, it's not who I am. I, you know, again, naturally curious about other people. And I feel like through that period of time where I was just like terrible, I wasn't caring about other people. I was like, don't you care about me? I couldn't wait to talk about myself. I couldn't wait to tell you about my next travel and adventure and blah, blah, blah.

SPEAKER_01 31:40

And I feel like could you see it in your work?

SPEAKER_00 31:43

I'm sure. Um, you know how we talked about just putting people on a beautiful mountainside and just making it amazing? I wanted the accolades.

SPEAKER_01 31:51

Yeah, it was shallow.

SPEAKER_00 31:52

It was shallow. It wasn't, and it wasn't, you know, that's fun for five minutes, you know, where you're like, okay, cool, I'm so great. And it's not really like how I want to create art. It wasn't, it didn't feel good. It didn't feel anything other than getting a great picture that people were like, wow, you know, if if you're doing it for the likes, you're doing it for the wrong reason.

SPEAKER_01 32:12

Yeah, that's it. So at this point, do you feel more, more um steady now, or do you just feel like more aware?

SPEAKER_00 32:21

Probably both, honestly. I feel a lot more steady in that I I just feel like I know who I am as a photographer. I don't look at a lot of other photographers' work. Um, and I feel like that's when I know that I'm really secure and feeling good about my own work. Like I'm not trying to be somebody else or beat somebody else's work or be better than somebody else. Like I'm truly creating for the people that want to work with me and I'm creating for myself. And, you know, those feel really good. I feel like that that feels when I'm stopping looking at other people's work and come doing that comparison game.

SPEAKER_01 32:55

That's hard.

SPEAKER_00 32:56

That's yeah. And I think that's when you you can just rest and be like, I'm doing okay. You know, I just I don't feel like I'm doing that comparison, like that comparison is a thief of joy kind of moment is a real thing. Like, truly.

SPEAKER_01 33:08

I try so hard to not do that, and it is just easier said than done. True, right? Like, I I I'm I'm pretty confident in what I do, I love what I do, but it's like, man, sometimes something will come up, and I'm like, God, I either I wish I made that, or why didn't I have that idea? Or like, God, what I'm making isn't that good.

SPEAKER_00 33:31

Okay, well, I do do that with painting sometimes. Like, I feel like my photography, I'm not doing that as much with painting, that might be a hold because it's newer.

SPEAKER_01 33:40

So I feel like I'm still trying to figure out who I am as a still trying to get your footing, still trying to figure out what your voice is.

SPEAKER_00 33:46

Yeah, yeah. Yes, I'm creating for myself, which feels good, but then there will be other painters that will put something out. I'm like, oh my gosh, that's so cool. And instead though, of like going and copying that work, I feel like I use that more to like how can I create something that feels that great for myself instead of just like, oh, well, what colors were they using or what's their subject matter? You know, I'm I don't take that and just run with the idea that I think is great, where I feel like as when I was a young photographer, I would see somebody else's work and then try to replicate that.

SPEAKER_01 34:20

Right. Well, I mean, I feel like that's probably how you start to figure out what you like, what you don't like. Uh right?

SPEAKER_00 34:28

Yes, absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 34:29

I was like, there's more to this sentence, but I don't think there is.

SPEAKER_00 34:33

It's that. You got the sentiment correct.

SPEAKER_01 34:37

So at this point in your career, at this point in your life, um, has your has your um ambition changed? I don't think I said that right. Has your uh, I don't know, goals or maybe definition of success changed?

SPEAKER_00 34:51

Yeah, I feel yes, it has. Um I'm not sure how to how to articulate that perfectly, but I feel like when I really just want to have fun and enjoy what I'm doing.

SPEAKER_01 35:05

I fucking love that.

SPEAKER_00 35:06

You know, I really do. I mean, monetarily, sure, great. That would be, you know, that's but that feels more secondary. I want to have a good where I get to wake up and do the things that I love to do. And it was funny, the other day I woke up and again, this is my slower season. I'm not photographing weddings as much. I still have shoots, but they're not as like intense as they are in like the spring, summer, and fall. And I woke up and got to, I had a slow breakfast and I went upstairs to my painting studio and I got to paint a couple pictures. And I'm like, oh, that's right. I was gonna run to the pottery studio and finish up these pieces. And I ran there and I did that. And I have friends that were at this the pottery studio and we're all laughing. And then I picked up my son from school, and then I went home and I like made dinner. And as I was like making dinner, just like reflective of my day, I was like, this is exactly the life that I wanted. And that feels like success to me. It wasn't how much money did I make today, how much, you know, accolades I got in any sort of thing. It was just I got to wake up and create a bunch of stuff that I thought was really cool and really fun. And, you know, my year shifts around a lot. So it's not always gonna feel that, you know, blissed out, but it felt great. Like that's the success is I'm doing the things that I've wanted to do. Um, and even in the height of my busyness, like I'm taking pictures, I'm photographing, I'm editing, like all these are things that I love to do so much. That's success to me.

SPEAKER_01 36:28

So I just I just hit my 40s. Uh well, I year and some change ago. Uh for me, I've been really in my own head about mortality and the fragility of life. Um as you age, do you do you do you have to wrestle with that kind of shit too?

SPEAKER_00 36:48

Yeah, yeah. A lot more than in yes, especially the last few years. Um, you know, I feel like we're in that like Sanders generation. Like, um, like we're raising a child, he's younger, he's like going to be 12 next week. And then I have parents that are in their 70s, and I feel like that, you know, watching parents' age, watching my son get older, I'm in a season where I am not it, you know, I'm 46. I'm 46. And I'm like, you know, I've been doing photography for 20 years. I love it. Like I have, you know, I've had to the nose to the grindstone. But then as I'm looking up, I'm like, wait, how much longer do people want me to photograph their weddings? Like, how much longer am I personally going to be relevant for the couples that I'm working with? Like, am I, you know, there is a relevancy thing that I personally am worried about. Um, and I feel like I don't need to force that too much. I feel like the people who want to work with me and see my work, um, you know, I think that connection is still there. But the the timing, like what in 10, you know, 10 years ago just feels like it was a blink.

SPEAKER_03 37:55

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 37:55

And then so in 10 more years, then I'm in my 50s. And that feels wild to me. Like, what? I, you know, I feel like we all have like an internal age. Like, do you know your internal age?

SPEAKER_01 38:07

Uh what is it just like how how old do you feel?

SPEAKER_00 38:10

Like, until you like look in the mirror or you actually like think about your age. How old are you?

SPEAKER_01 38:13

I would say like mid to late 20s.

SPEAKER_00 38:15

Yeah, I'm 28, like always. Like, I just feel like that's just like I haven't really like in my head. I'm just like, yeah, I'm like a young professional, I'm a young artist. Like, I'm not I, you know, I was when I started. And now, you know, when I'm photographing my couples, I'm like, oh, we're peers. And then their parents are like, oh, I graduated in the 90s. So it's like, cool. Like, oh fuck. You know, and I I that blows my mind. So yeah, I mean, that has come up a lot. Like, I feel like the the aging, I don't feel any different than I did in my 20s, like physically.

SPEAKER_01 38:49

Um, I feel way different.

SPEAKER_00 38:51

Well, okay, I do a little bit. I I feel like I don't feel different when I wake up out of bed, but I'm just like, wait, like all the things that used to be really easy. Like, you know, I I've always been able to think, you know, up until like recently, I could just eat whatever I wanted and not really have repercussions. And now I'm like, okay, yep, you do need to go to the gym. And, you know, so that has shifted and changed a little bit. But yeah, it it definitely like I wonder where I'm gonna be in 10 years and how I'm gonna be perceived in the art world in 10 years, you know. Um, but then I see a lot of badass women and men like out creating and they're like amazing and they're owning their age. And you know, I feel like that, I feel like as I I'm Gen X. I'm like right in that, like almost a millennial, but really, you know, in that little weird microgeneration. And I look at a lot of other Gen X people aging that are older than me, and I'm like, they're just owning it and they're cool. And I don't, yeah, you know, and so yes, definitely thinking about aging and what that looks like and my own mortality and all of these different things, but I'm also like, I don't know, like there's a lot more permission, you know, there's there's more permission, I feel like, these days to just be who you are and not worry about all the rest. I love that.

SPEAKER_01 40:01

And I feel like we're we're we're we're very lucky in that sense because that was not the case forever.

SPEAKER_00 40:07

And I feel like I'm cooler now than I was in my 20s. So why are we like prioritizing youth as like, you know, why are we looking at 20-year-olds as like this is who we want to be and who we want to look like when we're so much cooler as we age? Like, I don't get it. I mean, I understand because we're like a very, you know, as a society, we like aesthetics, we like all the things. Um but also why are we not saying like the people who are in their 30s, 40s, 50s, you're finding more of a sense of yourself. And I just feel like I'd much rather have a conversation with somebody who knows them that who they are than somebody who like thinks they know who they are and think they have all the answers, and they don't. I didn't at my 20s. I thought I did, dude.

SPEAKER_01 40:48

I look back at myself in my 20s and I kind of fucking hate that guy.

SPEAKER_00 40:52

Oh my gosh, I'm with you.

SPEAKER_01 40:54

Like, what a piece of shit. Honestly, what a piece of shit.

SPEAKER_00 40:58

I think I thought I knew everything. I really did.

SPEAKER_01 41:01

I did too. Like, I remember I remember this one time, and you know, for a long time I would tell this story as like a look how cool I am, kind of a thing. But now I think about it, I'm like, no, you're you're just a dick. Yep. Um, and and I was I was at an agency and um one of the one of the account people like I mean granted, she she she crossed a boundary as well because she was like, here's what the design should look like, and she drew it up for me. And without even like looking at it, I just like crumble it up and then threw it away. In front of her? Yeah. Oh, cool. Yeah, it's a good movie. Yeah, well, uh like I felt cool, but now I'm also like that might have been a good idea. You don't know.

SPEAKER_00 41:44

Yeah, well, it's what we do with that after you didn't continue to be that guy, so I mean for a little bit, okay, for a little bit, but I'm okay now.

SPEAKER_01 41:53

I'm okay now.

SPEAKER_00 41:54

I feel like we all go through our bad years.

SPEAKER_01 41:56

Yeah. Um, is there anything else we should talk about before we go topic hopping?

SPEAKER_00 42:01

I don't think so. I feel like we've covered a lot.

SPEAKER_01 42:04

All right, I think so too.

SPEAKER_00 42:05

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 42:05

All right. When you're gone, what do you hope people say about you?

SPEAKER_00 42:09

Oh, I hope people that when they're around me, they feel like they're heard. You know, I want people to remember me as being just kind and and real and a good human to be around. Um, you know, as an artist, I mean, I I would love to have people be like, oh yeah, Amy Carroll photographed my wedding or my family, or I have one of her art pieces on the wall and it brings me joy. You know, I want, I think, don't we all kind of want that? Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 42:39

Yeah, we do. Finish the thought. Creativity requires letting go. Go on.

SPEAKER_00 42:49

I think I think we hold things really tight. Like I know that when I've tried, like recently, I had a I had a full idea in my head of what I wanted to paint. And I started the painting, and it wasn't going how I wanted to. And I just ended up moving my paintbrush in a whole different way, and just it came out as this really beautiful, amazing piece because I just let go. I didn't hold on to this concept of what I was trying to do. I feel the same way in in my photography. Let go. Like when you're trying so hard to harness something, you get really frustrated because things inevitably are not gonna go, you know. The like you're like, you know, I've had it at weddings where I have this complete thought, I'm like, oh my gosh, we're gonna go over here. This is gonna be amazing. I want you to just, you know, look into each other's eyes or whatever that might be, or just really we're gonna go over here. And whatever ends up happening is actually more interesting usually than what I had conceptually in my head. I just feel like creativity requires a lot of letting go.

SPEAKER_01 43:49

It's just kind of like getting out of your own way.

SPEAKER_00 43:51

Yeah, of course. Right?

SPEAKER_01 43:53

Just letting it flow.

SPEAKER_00 43:54

Yep.

SPEAKER_01 43:54

You know, I think I feel like um the the process of making is not the time to be precious.

SPEAKER_00 44:02

That's that's the quote right there.

SPEAKER_01 44:04

Yeah. Um, what would your last meal be?

SPEAKER_00 44:09

Hmm. Well, Thai food is always my go-to comfort food. I love Thai food.

SPEAKER_01 44:15

All right, let's talk, let's talk spice level.

SPEAKER_00 44:17

Yep. So it's more than West Michigan spice.

unknown 44:20

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 44:20

But but less than, you know, I mean, maybe like a notch up from West Michigan spice. So, you know, I like it a little spicy, but I need to taste the food.

SPEAKER_01 44:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 44:30

You know, I can't be sweating the whole time. Then I'm just worried about sweating the whole time.

SPEAKER_01 44:34

I've got a buddy who uh we went out for I think it was Thai food. Um, and he uh he went way too hot. And there was a point in the meal where he's just like, I can't hear you.

SPEAKER_00 44:44

Yeah, it's just uncomfortable. I know the blood starts dry. Yeah, all of it. I've I've been there before. I've had a really beautiful meal meal in Chinatown once in New York, and I literally Literally, like was having the most the best time until I wasn't. And it was just like sweat, just so much sweat. Um yeah. And I also like because it's fresh in my mind that I may change it from Thai food. We were out, I was out with a bunch of girlfriends in Detroit this past weekend, and we had this really beautiful dinner, and they brought out a sweet potato. We ordered the sweet potato on the menu, and it was like life-changing. It truly was. So it's either Thai food or this sweet potato. It was like one of the best bites I've ever had.

SPEAKER_01 45:22

Talk to me about that sweet potato.

SPEAKER_00 45:23

Yeah, it was incredible. I wish I could replicate it. It was kind of like charred, and you know how like it, you know, all those like sugars caramelized and like crunchy quinoa that was like charred on top of it. And then this just really beautiful, nuanced sauce. It was like a little spicy, a little sweet, and you just bit it. And I was like, what? It was the first bite of our meal. And we all just kind of like looked at each other. It was like a moment, you know. I feel like we rarely have that.

SPEAKER_01 45:47

We're all experiencing this.

SPEAKER_00 45:48

Yeah, it was incredible. So I feel like that sweet potato might actually that's awesome. My last meal.

SPEAKER_01 45:54

What's the what's the worst or the best advice you've ever received?

SPEAKER_00 46:00

I don't know if this would be considered advice. It's more of a quote, but it's it was given by my dad, like when I was young. And I remember hearing it, and I was like, huh. And it's just always, and it's not this is a known quote. This it might be a cliche quote, to be honest, but it was and it, you know, it's the like ships are safest in the harbor kind of thing, but that's not what ships were made for. And you know, it's really easy to get comfortable, and you can stay nice and happy and comfortable in your own harbor. And, you know, you probably won't experience a lot of you know hard things because you're safe, but that's not what we're made for. So I'd much rather get out there and risk getting hurt, risk getting trodden down or you know, fail. But that's what we're made for. And, you know, to come back, that's that's what I'm here for. I don't want to stay safe in a harbor. I'm gonna try a bunch of stuff. I'm gonna enjoy that. I might risk all of it, but that's it's worth it to me.

SPEAKER_01 46:59

Yeah. What's your walk-up song?

SPEAKER_00 47:01

Music fluctuates pretty fast for me. So what would my walk-up song be? I'm really I've been listening to a lot of glass animals and polo and pan lately, and they're more vibe than they are a walk-up song.

SPEAKER_01 47:13

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 47:14

Um, gosh, what would my walk-up song be? I feel like it would be vibes more. So there is a song, but I can't remember the artist. Can I get back to you on this? Can we pause this right here? Let me think. Can I look up a song really quick?

SPEAKER_01 47:28

Take a minute, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 47:29

I feel like what is the name of the I gotta find the yeah. So my walk-up song is I forgot it again. I forget that. It's I literally was playing around on Spotify and this came up because I was kind of looking for just like good painting vibe songs. And La Route by Junior. Junior?

SPEAKER_03 47:52

Oh, sure.

SPEAKER_00 47:53

I don't know. I think I think it might be a French band, I don't, or a singer. Um, but the vibes are just like everything that I've been incorporating into my like artwork lately. And I feel like I've just been like, you know how like Spotify will just kind of like create a playlist based on one vibe. So then this song came up, and I was like, wait, what is that? And so I've been like kind of playing it on repeat a lot, but it's just obscure. I don't yeah, this vibe right here, but unfamiliar with the band, unfamiliar with the artists, but that song has just kind of been that's awesome.

SPEAKER_01 48:21

That's awesome. Um, what makes you feel most like yourself?

SPEAKER_00 48:26

My friends, they're the equalizer. Yeah, I mean, I think being around the people that know me the most, because I can I can tend to I I'm a I'm an extrovert, but I have found, especially like in the last several years, I like a lot more time by myself. And then you start to forget a little bit, like if I spend too much time with myself and I can, like I am happy to be up painting all day and doing pottery and having that be a completely solo activity. And then when I'm around the people like my husband, my son, my friends, like they're the like it kind of brings me back to who I really am and why I'm doing anything that I'm doing. So um, especially like I, you know, I have an almost 12-year-old son, and he he's um he's witty and he cuts right to the bone, not to be mean, but he he definitely brings me right back to how he knows me. And I feel like, yeah, I really think it's the people that I love the most that really make me feel like myself. Um, you know, doing all the creative and the fun endeavors that I do, I love that. That's for me. But I think when I'm thinking on the bigger scope of it, it's the people that I spend the time with.

SPEAKER_01 49:35

Yeah. Do you have any regrets?

SPEAKER_00 49:37

So many. We don't have time for that. If we do a regret podcast episode, we're gonna do a whole episode. I have I have a lot. I have many. And it usually involves me just being a selfish human. And you know, we touched on that a little bit, but I think anytime I feel the yuckiest about myself, it's generally because of an expectation that I had for somebody else. I just don't want to be a garbage human.

SPEAKER_01 50:04

Yeah. Yeah. I have a lot of those same uh when you when you look back and you're like, I was not a good, I was not good.

SPEAKER_00 50:13

No, yeah. Those are my biggest regrets, are are just the yeah, things that I've done. Although, you know, I've certainly had where I could have taken an opportunity that I said no to, but there was probably a reason for that.

SPEAKER_03 50:27

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 50:27

Um, you know, but I really think the biggest regrets are just I was standing in my way for them.

SPEAKER_01 50:33

Yeah. All right. Last question I have for you. Are you okay?

SPEAKER_00 50:38

I'm good. I feel better. I feel better in 2026 than I did at the beginning of this decade. And I feel like it just keeps getting better.

SPEAKER_01 50:47

That's amazing. Um, before we wrap this up, um, where can people find you?

SPEAKER_00 50:53

I have so many spots. Um lay them out. Instagram is always where I tend to spend the most time on a social platform. Um, so Amy Carroll Photography. Um, I also have Amy Carroll Print Shop, uh, another Instagram. Um that's kind of where I share more of my artwork. Um, and then physically, I now have a little art space up in Rockford um with Maison Blanc. Um, I'm not there all the time, although I do go from time to time. Um, but you can see some of my artwork and pottery there if you find yourself in Rockford.

SPEAKER_01 51:26

So dope. All right, you want to get out of here? Yeah. All right. Bad Idea Social Club is an independent podcast made possible by merch sales, reviews, and listener support. It is created and hosted by me, graphic designer Aaron McCall, and co-hosted by photographer Joe Madison. Music is noises by Mike Mains in the branches. Get Bad Idea Social Club wherever you get your podcasts.